The hobby isn't really reality. We can only do our best when it comes to vouching for guys in this business. I personally think guys should never take it personal when they are denied. Whether it is a whitelist or an actual appointment. We deal with the most CRAZY crap on a daily basis. We can only do our best, you know?
I just hate it when guys bust our chops about whitelists, screening, our criteria or whatever. Again, We do our best. There are waaaaay to many girls in the hobby to complain.I am sure some people have their perspective of what the White Lists means. I personally have always thought of the Whitelist as the answer to "is this person safe(as in not mentally disturbed or erratic)?is this person LE? or if this person is a con artist/pimp/hustler?". That being said I dont think it is a list that says every provider and hobbyist will click personality wise for whatever reason.
What concerns me most is when some says I have to see the person 3-4 times before I would whitelist them or give them an OK? So may I ask why? Surely, you will discover if that person is unsafe, LE, or con artist in the first visit or at most the second visit. If they are putting up a pretense why couldnt they pretend for two more visits.
Dont get me wrong I think everyone's safety is paramount and that we all should exercise diligence in both screening and engagement; however, I am curious as what can reasonably be discovered about someone in 3-4 visit that couldnt be discovered in 1-2 visits? I just personally dont feel the odds of discovering a "red flag" in a person in those later two visits are high. Thoughts?
I've learned my lesson many a times to stop giving White Lists & Okays after only the first visit.
I've had a regular of mine stand me up twice without any excuse why. I let it slide the first time but the second? Shame on me. I actually took my White List back. I can NEVER vouch for somene that could possibly do the same to the next girl.
You also forgot about reliability. Are they time wasters? Maybe not the first or second time, but you usually know by the 3rd or 4th. I'll no longer give White Lists or Okays after the first visit.
And let's talk about the guys who will act right and cooperate with one provider & not the other. I had a guy pull some nonsense on me with VERY reputable White Lists, and after I was given great feedback from his references (top 100), that I doubt he pulled on them otherwise he wouldn't have those whitelists. I DO think girls need to buckle down on that.
A fellow provider was even robbed by her regular once or I think she said she caught him trying to.
Some of these clients ain't loyal, man.
Same thing with reviews: your client sees you once, reviews you well. Sees you again, and you guys enjoyed yourself even better the second time and wish they had waited to include some of the juicy details of the second visit! At least the review would be a little more "accurate"? IDK...
Some may think giving White Lists after numerous visits sucks, but I can say the same thing for guys that don't or no longer give reviews do to their past experiences with a bad apple. Even for the good apples whom they may have thoroughly enjoyed themselves with.
It is what is and ain't what it ain't, I guess. *sigh*
Just my 2c.
-Anina
There are never any "slam dunks" or sure things. It's truly up to the lady to decide if she's comfortable enough to "white list" you on your first encounter. In my experience most will, however, I can't fault a lady for being a bit more apprehensive and preserving her "white listing" after more than one encounter. After all, she's also risking her reputation with other colleagues by giving a "Referral". While it's not exactly the same, but similar, I'm very cautious before I provide a job referral for someone. There are people that I may have met and know, but I may not t be comfortable recommending them after one meeting. I guess the way I look at it, if it enhances everyone's safety and confidence in the process, then I'm all for it. I'd rather error on the side of being overly cautious.
While I can understand and in some cases agree with your statement. Anina and shaft are right... When a whitelist is given from a provider, they have established a trust with you and a comfortably with the hobbyist. They are willing to put their reputation on the line with other providers that you are safe and etc.... for instance, if a hobbyist pm you and asked questions regarding the provider you seen and review, would you be willing to put your reputation on the line for that provider? How about if the experience was not great and you given 9s or 10's in the review, each sides words dictates weather the provider have business or hobbyist can play with providers. That is why provider are somewhat selective in whitelist. Hope this helps with you.
There isnt zero risk involved. Irrespective if you seen that person once or 3-4 times that doesnt mean that the next 2-3 times he wont stand you up nor be late.
Also, I dont think the whitelist exist to gauge the individual personality or preferences relationships varies so much between providers. I know one instance where two providers were friends and a Hobbyist who was seeing provider A. They had an ongoing Hobbyist/provider relationship for the better part of 3 years with absolutely no problems he was one of her most reliable, respectful and trusted clients(her words). So when the Hobbyist realized that Provider A and Provider B where friends he scheduled a session with Provider B and used Provider A(whom he had been seeing for almost 3 years consistently) as a reference.
So when Provider B called Provider A for verification, Provider A gave him glowing recommendation. The guy had his session with Provider B; however, she took exception to Provider A giving him the thumbs up. She said because he had tats, dreads and looked like a thug (nevermind that he was respectful and even tipped her an extra $150) that Provider A should have never given him the thumbs up. Long story short they fell out, are no longer friends and do not accept references from each other.
I say all this to say, as with personal taste, expectations, and performance; who you see and click with may have nothing to do with what I feel the purpose of the Whitelist is. Are they safe? reliable? and not LE? Again just my perspective.
Provider A and B talked and obviously did not know each very well because if they did A would have know the B would not like Clients looks and at least warned B. But that is not anything a white/black list would cover.
Yes the basic of a white is "is he safe". But I would believe most providers imply significantly more then that, which is why white lists may be given out slowly. And if a provider becomes know for just handing out White list approval like candy I would guess many providers would put no stock in the White listing from that individual. I know I have several reviewers I automaticy ignore because of their reputation or my option of them.
-- Modified on 3/8/2015 1:06:52 PM
-- Modified on 3/8/2015 1:20:02 PM
And what grown man cares about a whether a bunch of broads are friends or not.
People have different preferences as to who they'd see, who they'd white list etc...
I think you're reading too much into this whole white list thing. Or maybe not enough.
Even the girls on the PO board don't bitch this hard about reviews.
I doubt a girl would white list a guy she felt was a jerk at any point during their time together.
That same guy she felt was a jerk, another girl may find him to be funny or that "jerkness" to be sexy. As you say, its all a matter of perspective.
It doesn't matter how YOU feel you may have come off, what YOU intended or all that other cry baby stuff. WE are the white list givers. If we feel a certain way, we can only rely on our instincts and intuition and OUR feelings. That's ALL we can do. I'd rather deny a guy & be wrong about him then risk finding out I'm right & shouldn't have.
I can tell guys what I feel reviews should cover but that's not the part I play. We work for the review. If you don't give one, another guy will, or won't either way the hobby still moves on. YOU guys work for the trust the best you can. That is all you can do. Miss one another will come. If you keep getting denied then it's you, not us.
Damn!
Can't we all just hobby without the whining.
Wow anina that is some kind of fire.Wow explosive...
The hobby isn't really reality. We can only do our best when it comes to vouching for guys in this business. I personally think guys should never take it personal when they are denied. Whether it is a whitelist or an actual appointment. We deal with the most CRAZY crap on a daily basis. We can only do our best, you know?
I just hate it when guys bust our chops about whitelists, screening, our criteria or whatever.
Again,
We do our best. There are waaaaay to many girls in the hobby to complain.
and the process will never get better if people dont complain about what they perceive is wrong and discuss way to try and improve it.
I understand what you are saying. Idk but it's how the hobby society is sometimes. The system and process of things allow us to have the mentally that we have to have this or whatever and feel maybe a betrayal if we don't. I know that a lot of providers don't even look at whitelist for screening and they have certain things that is use for verification purposes. I feel that we as a whole just enjoy what is being presented to us and have fun. Do you know what I mean anina?
I most certainly do. I know exactly what you mean and agree with you to a great degree. I just also think from time to time we all need to reevaluate things and say "is this how the process was intended to work? how is it working? and can we make it better?" for me this is one of those times. As I will probably very soon be leaving TER (not the hobby) after 7 years, completely.
After conversing with a few other hobbyists and some associate/friends of mine that are providers this forum, message system, review system, etc etc... isnt what it used to be, could be or all around as helpful as it once was, could be and still can be. As with anything I thought I would try and leave something better than I found it. This time by trying to create a constructive dialog on how things are and areas that I thought could be improved for the entire process.
We have a saying in IT "if you dont like change then you are going to love becoming irrelevant" or as they say in science "that which does not evolve in an ever evolving world is doomed to become extinct".
The reason this one particular thing hits home for me is because when I first came to ATL back in Jan 2010 I believe, it was really difficult for me to actually book a session and Heidi took a chance on me. I provider her two previous references from my previous city and filled her application and went through her thorough screening process. Toward the end of our 2 hour session we were discussing the ATL hobby scene and chose to whitelist me on TER. She felt that I was clean, safe and saw no reason I should constantly have to go through a day or two of screening to simply see a provider. She is retired now and moved on to bigger and better things in life.
Overall, there are some providers that I instantly had a vibe with and some I would never see again and/or would never see me again. I sincerely believe as with most people in life, your vibe with individual hobbyist/providers is YMMV. This doesnt necessarily mean they should be Blacklisted, that they are Dangerous or that another provider who whitelisted them is full of shit; but rather that some people click, some dont and some can ignore the individual faults of the other to handle the business of the day. Not that anyone of those individual personal feeling is wrong but that they shouldnt be injected into something that(the Whitelist) in my opinion should be as objective as possible. I hope that we can evolve as a community to distinguish one from the other.
To me White and Black Listings are the closest things providers have to reviews of clients. While there is no "details" (that I know of) it relays the providers general approval (or lack there of) of clients. I feel like most providers follow the same general rule I do in writing reviews. As a general rule, I have to see a provider at least 3 times ( exceptions have been made) before I write a review and I also have to be asked (since I am not a fan of writing them). Why 3, well first visit always (for me) involves getting to know the person and some level of nerves, second visit things begin to loosen up and exploration of each other's needs/desires/fantasies begins seriously, by the third you got a fair idea who and what each other are, you know how to "push each other's buttons" and all that implies.
It is fairly easy to be someone your not for the first visit or two but generally by the third the guards are going to start to come down or the amour will start to crack.
My reviews are my "stamp of approval" or lack there of. White/Black listing are the same for providers. Simply ask yourself do you want yourself associated with a person you saw 1 time for an hour or 2?
And before anyone jumps in and say something like "you would see a bad/dangerous provider 3 times before writing a review?" The answer is no, bad/dangerous provider would get a bad review right out of the gate and I am sure providers generally have the same rule about Black listing.
T $0.02
I understand your perspective. I truly do; however my thing is you need a few session to know if you and they person click or if you would continue to see each other. While on the contrary, to reference your previous response, the heart of the whitelist is "are they safe?". That question can be GENERALLY answered on the first visit. It can never be specifically answered. My thing is I caution against associating the white list with the providers who approved hobbyist. Simply because one person experience is a certain way doesnt guarantee another provider may feel safe. Give that fact the first person shouldnt be held or viewed negatively because they felt safe with that person. Whether it was 1 or 6 visits.
Ultimately, there are no easy answers as there are many variables at play. I guess my point is that I caution against using the whitelist as a "review" of the client rather as a tool for "safety". I think it GENERALLY means someone is safe to see(this isnt a zero risk hobby) and while some providers may see a certain clientele that another provider would not that shouldnt be carried over to the logic "they are giving out bullshit white lists for these guys that look like thugs or inbreds ".
I think the whitelist along with other screening tools are used for safety, security and reliability not review clients nor other providers. Again just my opinion. Maybe we need a Grey list for those who are safe but unreliable or YMMV clients.
I just think Whitelist = safe(not LE nor a raging lunatic) Grey=(YMMV or unreliable/hit or miss), Black=(pimp, con artists, thief, etc).
I can understand by the question. The question that you have ,I believe that you are asking why is there certain criteria for a whitelist when after a visit that you should be already safe. Right? Because I want to answer it correctly without a misunderstanding.
Well my logic flows like this Joe:
If we agree the Whitelist is ONLY a tool for SAFETY screening and if we can not truly know someone in 1 to 20 visits, but can determine if they are "OK"/Safe. Then my question follows as why is use of the Whitelist being extended as a review for clients and providers alike?
It seems to me that if a person has a pretense of safety on the first visit, I dont think its a huge jump in logic to assume they can pretend to be safe 2-3 more times, especially if they know the "criteria" they need to meet. Honestly, I feel that you look for red flags on the first visit and that it is unlikely (although not entirely impossible) to discover he is Jeffrey Dahmer in your 2nd, 3rd or 4th visit.
Furthermore, I dont think whitelists should be used against providers who have had a session and feel safe with a particular person whom another provider didnt. That is the nature of the business as some people are more comfortable with certain types than others. That if you felt uncomfortable that you may want to "Graylist" that person to say "while i was never put in harms way I didnt necessary like the good ole boy or thuggish vibe this guy and i had."
It would be grossly unfair to the provider who did feel safe and the hobbyist who didnt do anything but be himself to call the whitelisting BS.
I equate it as a basic background check when you are hired for a job. "Does this person have a felony conviction?" If yes then we may not want to hire him as a good fit for the company. If no, that is still not an indication he WILL be a good fit for the company but we are will weigh other factors to see if we will hire him.
So basically I look at the whitelist as ... we know that this person has been seen and doesnt have any obvious red flags. However, that doesnt guarantee if I see him that I will feel comfortable nor safe.
I think that point is true whether a provider has seen him once or 20 times.
Again to illustrate my point:
Whitelist = no felony convictions
Graylist= got caught smoking weed and a couple speeding tickets when he was a teenager
Blacklist= Convicted of Murder, Embezzlement, other felony offenses
The Whitelist in my opinion just gets you through the door to say Ok he is Generally safe, we can attempt to conduct business. I just dont think that takes a lot to determine that.
-- Modified on 3/8/2015 2:40:03 PM
Ok, I think that you are asking, and I don't want to be mistaken. If a whitelist is a safety background check, why should we have to wait for the whitelist if the provider knows that we are safe, especially after the first visit? If we are safe after the first visit, then the chances of that change is minimum to none right? Also, if a provider still have questions about the hobbyist then they need to be greylist until they be comfortable with going ahead and whitelist them? Maybe that should be a new feature that TER should implement a greylist option.
Not just whether they are LE or not.
Some of the things I ask a guy's reference is "Is he a gentlemen & would you see him again". AMong A BUNCH of other things reguarding his mannerisms.
MOST of my inquiries are from guys that actually have pretty reputable references. The main concern is whether they are jerks, annoying, hard to work with disrespectful...etc etc. There are WAAAAY more factors besides whether they are LE or not. There are guys out there that aren't LE that I wouldn't white list let alone see again or see at all. I personally, have found LE to be sooo frickin obvious that that tends to be one of the least things that concern me. I know the law & how to do certain things that I can see those idiots a mile away.
At least from my experience. And I have a squeaky clean record. No tickets, no credit(yet ), no charges, I damn sure don't have any debt. So I'm doing SOMETHING right. (knock on wood.) I'm still pretty young.
LE is still a big & very important factor but from MY PERSPECTIVE, & the way I operate it isn't the only factor.
For some girls that may be their only factor and they may choose to deal with jerks, but it's more than that for certain girls with certain standards.
It's more than that, dude. This is why I say, just worry about doing your part & we'll handle ours. You don't have to agree with how whitelists are given. It doesn't matter how you think they should be given or what they should stand for.
Walk a mile in our shoes. I have to watch this awesome ass of mine & do my best to watch the lovely asses of the other girls. That's just the way it is.
I just think Whitelist = safe(not LE nor a raging lunatic) Grey=(YMMV or unreliable/hit or miss), Black=(pimp, con artists, thief, etc).
She kinda said it best. Good post anina?
However, 90% of those things you name shouldnt be used in the Whitelist. Again, I am not trying to tell you how to conduct your business but it undermines the very tool itself in my opinion. Nearly all those things you named are subjective and can not be quantified on any list. While being comfortable is also somewhat subjective that can go in a gray list, but I think the Whitelist would be more functional if it was more narrow in scope focusing on safety and LE.
Rather than introducing a ton of subjective factors that will vary from hobbyist to hobbyist and provider to provider.
Every lady I have ever talked to about the White List views it as an endorsement of the hobbiest not just a validation. Many ladies are willing to give a references from even one good visit but not White List until they are really comfortable with that hobbiest.
A reference and a White List are very different at least in my experience
Also, that is a very arrogant attitude to approach improving the community. There isnt "my part" or "your part" this is a community. The very idea that hobbyist cant offer way to improve on how to make the process for EVERYONE better is completely absurd.
If you agree or disagree you are free to express your opinion but I think it should be respected when someone who views things differently offers critiques and improvements on the process. Simply because something loosely works doesnt mean it couldnt be made better.
You use whatever criteria you feel comfortable and I have the right to agree or disagree it wont change what you use but it may for other providers who agree with my perspective. Some may and some may not, but please dont come off as "know your role and shut your mouth".
I would never tell someone to know their role & shut their mouth. You are definitely entitled to your opinion and so am I.
But I think it IS the providers job to watch her back and help other ladies as well (even hobbyists). They can only do their best.
I personally find it to be slightly offensive when guys complain about it when they only have IDEAS of what we deal with. You may have provider friends that tell you the crazy things they deal with but you will never really know until you wear these pumps.
DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT think hobbyists should "know their rolse and shut their mouths" but the ones that complain should chill out, stop taking things so personal when they don't deal with the type of things we deal with.
Not to say hobbyists do not face certain risks & dangers. They do indeed which is why you guys have REVIEWS to help one another out.
But ONCE AGAIN providers can only do their best. Same thing with these reviews out here. One guy gives a girl a 7 and says she isn't his body type; another gives her a 9 saying her body is amazing. Which happened to me. You never saw me whining. I mean honestly, I was like wtf but hey, he was the perfect gentleman & if he wanted to see me again (for whatever reason) I would actually see him because he was a great guy from what I could tell) Don't know if I would white list because it was only one meeting but....
It is what it is.
I mean you're more than welcome to come over to the provider side to start giving white lisst but don't be mad because some girls conduct their business in way that makes it impossible for you to get a white list just because YOU feel you should have one.
I think ladies should continue to do what makes them comfortable and not let anyone talk them into doing something different from that. Which a lot of guys try to do, you know? There are Slick Ricks out here that we deal with.
That's all I'm saying dude. I love the hobbyists, just not the cry babies. Idk what to say to the cry babies other than maybe just try to meet that provider's criteria. That is all you can do. Or find someone else with lower standards.
But you may have your opinion, I'm just giving mine.
"just worry about doing your part & we'll handle ours"= know your role
"the ones that complain should chill out"= shut your mouth
Not sure what you are trying to accomplish by labeling someone or anyone who has a critique of the process a "cry baby". Furthermore, you use a "DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT think hobbyists should 'know their roles and shut their mouths'"; then turn around and same the EXACT SAME THING with different words!
I am sure your labeling of other people's perspective as "cry baby" matters to someone but it isnt me. You can yell and name call and go over the top and pretend that hobbyist dont have skin in the game like we dont get robbed and harmed as well.
Just last week a hobbyist messaged me about a provider who he previously seen and thought was good, robbed him for $1000. (on a side not feel free to share who you are but I wont disclose our dms nor who you are on the board) Everyone has risk... provider's risks are at far greater than hobbyist, that is beyond contestation but that doesnt make it any less than a community in which we all enjoy and share and have equal say(unless someone has been elect leader that I am unaware). While we should all respect the experience of our more Veteran members everyone has a right to voice their opinion. Since I dont like those who voice their questions, critiques and request being subjected to smartass, dumbasses, and general berating I will reply and be the change I would like to see.
Simply because I offered not only a critique of the community's process but a possible solution who in the hell are you to try to tell anyone to know their "role/part" or whatever the hell you want to call it. If your criteria is your criteria or you have a different take than cool but who the hell do you think you are to say others perspective is "crying, whining, complaining, etc, etc, etc" simply because you dont share it or dont like it. You are not better than one on this board, your life isnt more valuable, providers opinions are not more important than hobbyist and hobbyist opinions are not more important than any providers.
This thread isnt about me whining about a provider or a whitelist from anyone I could care less. I thought I would start a CONSTRUCTIVE discussion and see if anyone shared my perspective and possibly offer some improvements. What is DESTRUCTIVE is when someone offers their assessment (which I appreciated and appropriately responded) then cloak themselves in "you are whining and I get to say that because I am a provider" attitude and attempt to discredit any of the discussion because it "irks" you. Well I let me tell you SO WHAT. If you feel that we are crying, whining or complaining , it cost you nothing pay it no mind.
Chill out to me means to calm down.
By all means leave your mouth open if you'd like....
Again, a matter of perspective.
As you also say, I am just stating my opinion. You may not like it or may even take offense to it, but it's my opinion.
I could have payed this thread no mind, but goshdarnnit I wanted to state my opinion.
I stand behind everything I said. You may feel it's contradictory, but hey! That's how you feel.
Hobbyists and providers DO have specific roles/parts that they play that are equally important. I'm not putting myself above anyone and would never. I'm simply saying, if you just focus on the role of the hobbyist a little more instead of busting our chops about whitelists maybe you'd have some whitelists.
Now let's see how you're going to flip this response to make me look like a total beeyotch.
LOOK BUDDY! It's International Women's Day! Wrong Day for This Thread!
Kidding.
No but really, I'm defending my ladies here, ok?
Stop busting the chops.
Leave the chops alone.
Just step away.
P.S.
For some providers "Black=pimp,con artists, thief, etc" is very true. LMAO Same for some hobbyists. Some would never see an ebony provider. There's nothing that can be done about it except us just doing our parts to show one another a good ole time.
Anyways, I digress.
*bows gracefully*
-Anina
First, no one is responding to your opinion about the subject matter. I made that perfectly clear, or maybe you didnt read my entire response.
Here let me expand on it. Offering a retort to my initial points, adding perspective or illustrating why the status quo works better than what I proposed is truly valued. Thats your perspective thats your opinion.
Name calling such as "cry baby","quite complaining" or "quite whining" are argumentum ad hominem, means responding to the persons opinions or points by attacking a person rather than to the content of their arguments. This is a good way to devolve any discussion and make it about you and me rather than the process I was suggesting needs improvement.
You are simply trying to blur your ad hominem attacks into your personal opinion about the subject matter and paint the picture that I am intolerant of your "opinion" This works on those that are strong of spirit and weak of mind sure. However its ridiculous to people with clarity of thought.
I dont take offense when people attack my ideas nor personal opinion; I take offense when they try to insult and/or negatively label me or anyone else whose opinion differs or disliked as "cry baby", "whiner" or "complainer".This undermines constructive dialog.
Futhermore, I dont think anyone needs you to "define roles" in the community forums. The moment you voice who does and doesnt get to speak on any part of the overall process, is the moment you have put yourself on a pedestal above everyone else. I thank you but I dont need you to define "my role" or any place I have in life for me. I have strong mind and I dont have to be spoonfeed. Thank you.
More to that point, while I am sure your perspective represent some providers, most of the providers I have met or interacted on this board are strong enough to express their views(my personal observation nothing more). I have yet to see a thread where ladies said... "I cant speak for myself I need AninaLove to champion my opinion." yet you still dont see the arrogance in your statements "I'm defending my ladies" as if your ladies need defending. That I am "busting OUR chops" is no one other than you for bring negativity into a constructive discussion.
Finally, I well aware of the situation in which clients and providers choose not to see African-American men and women. It's a reality, I dont like it and I dont complain about it on the boards. I have called providers who have declined to see me because I am Black which is their right as an American. Oh well such is life.
As a Black Male I am more concerned with my personal situations like getting stopped 4 times on the side of the road at night when I was coming across Texas, after buying a new Porsche simply because "I looked suspicious" and because "He thought a brake light was out" after tailing me for 7 miles for us to both come to the conclusion it wasnt(new car with dealer tags) but "I want to run your license anyway".
If a provider doesnt see me because I am Black... that is the least of my worries. Do I think it is wrong ? Yes. Would I voice it is wrong if asked? Yes. Would I go out of my way to try reconstruct the overly generalized image of Black men in a provider's mind. Probably not. It's not a battleground that I would choose to spend energy fighting such views.
You have a happy International Women's Day.
P.S. (not really because I can actually edit it)
Is that enough "flip" for you?
...He was saying black lists should be for pimps, con artists, and thiefs. While white lists should be for are the clients safe and a gray list could be for all the "gray" areas you have mentioned.
Just to clarify on this I was rereading it and want to clarify that
"Black=pimp,con artists, thief, etc" means BLACKLIST=pimp, con artists, thief, etc, etc, I am African American and almost got offended at my own damn post...rofl.
White Lists is only one tool that a lady has. Most ladies use more than one method to screen. There is bad and good people on both sides of the hobby. The bad gets notice really quickly and is isolated quickly by the community.
Most hobbyists only see a lady once or twice then they move on except for an ATF or two. I don't think a lot of guys make a third or fourth visit. The economic law of diminishing return comes to play after the second visit. Meaning that the cost benefit ratio widens after each visit.
I know for me. I view this hobby as any other service industry. Meaning that I always make sure I am free at the time of the appointment and I make sure I always pay. I wouldn't go to a restaurant and not pay the bill.
I get busy with work. I don't have time to email providers for kicks. When the Wheelchairman makes an appointment he keeps it and doesn't play games with the ladies' money. I wouldn't play games with my lawyer's money. Why would I play games with the lady's money?
I think most hobbyists are like me. All they want to do is pay the lady and have a good time without drama.
Most hobbyists only see a lady once or twice then they move on except for an ATF or two. I don't think a lot of guys make a third or fourth visit. The economic law of diminishing return comes to play after the second visit. Meaning that the cost benefit ratio widens after each visit.
I know for me. I view this hobby as any other service industry. Meaning that I always make sure I am free at the time of the appointment and I make sure I always pay. I wouldn't go to a restaurant and not pay the bill.
I get busy with work. I don't have time to email providers for kicks. When the Wheelchairman makes an appointment he keeps it and doesn't play games with the ladies' money. I wouldn't play games with my lawyer's money. Why would I play games with the lady's money?
I think most hobbyists are like me. All they want to do is pay the lady and have a good time without drama.
only you seem to think that 99.9999% equals 100%, Do I really need to explain this to you?
Totally agree Wheelchairman. I agree there are very few ladies I have or wanted to see over twice. Over the years there have been a couple and in the future I dont see that changing. Which is while I think the providers safety is paramount I think the way the Whitelist system is being used as the closest thing to "client reviews" isnt a good tool for that.
If the only thing tool you are ever given is a hammer than all your problems will look like nails. It serves neither the hobbyist who has plenty of providers and just arent into writing a review for a provider who already has over 50(trust me I am not alone in this view); nor, does it give an accurate assessment of the list of "good" clients out there who simply arent on a list because of YMMV being injected into a list I feel should be more objective than subjective.
I remember years ago when I first came to ATL and was already a TER member then tried to open an account with P411 and used a Pornstar I had done a o+$3k overnight session, that when they called her she refused to give a reference unless I paid her an extra $500. (dm if you want to know who it was cause I thought that was bullshit have no problem calling her on it.) So I wasnt able to get on p411 then. A few years back I tried again and a top 10 provider in ATL who I done two separate session was used as a reference but she doesnt give out references/OK unless you have done 3-4 sessions with her.
Not that I didnt love the sessions I just didnt want to feel like I HAD to see her again. Eventually, P411 knew my situation not to mention I had other providers/agencies who had vouched for me as well. They also asked the right question to that particular provider as well to determine I was safe to join p411.
I honestly feel that we as both hobbyist and provides/as a community can improve this process so that is more efficient and meaningful for everyone.
-- Modified on 3/8/2015 5:42:56 PM
That's insane dude!!! Although it was porn star $500 WTF? You already gave her 3K for one night's work and at least 6 of those hours she was asleep.
Although i don't repeat to often. I do use the same three agencies in Atlanta over again. I do use more agencies then I do Indys. It is just easier for me to setup a date thru someone that I know. The agencies already know my unique situation and they can let the lady know beforehand that they will be seeing a dude in a wheelchair. Hence my TER handle lol. The agency can steer me towards their ladies who are cool with banging a random dude in a wheelchair. I guess for $300 to $500/hr most ladies will be cool with banging a dude in a wheelchair. lol
Adding insult to injury as if it was some strange negotiation tactic instead of it actually being insulting. She indicated she would compromise for $300.. and I have to understand this is business.
I remember years ago when I first came to ATL and was already a TER member then tried to open an account with P411 and used a Pornstar I had done a o+$3k overnight session, that when they called her she refused to give a reference unless I paid her an extra $500.
But that's my opinion. That may very well be her way of doing things. I just don't see WHAT it is that can be done to "improve it" as everyone has their one way of doing things. And there aren't any actually requirements as far as the ACTUAL whitelist system. (besides actually seeing him).
But no, that IS pretty f'd up.
You should've hit her with the Girl Bye
My perspective is that we have a "Greylist" system in which if you have seen someone and you dont necessarily want to vouch for them. Put them in a Greylist.... meaning I have seen this person but YMMV or I didnt feel comfortable enough to go as far as a Whitelist. This way the Hobbyist gets to move toward a whitelist without being forced to see someone over and over when they really dont want to and the Provider isnt "vouching" for them but rather saying I have seen him and he didnt try to kill me nor was he LE.
Moreover, after a person has more than 5 Greylist by providers who have more than 10 reviews promote him automatically to the Whitelist with a tag indicating or star saying that he has been whitelisted by the community in general via Greylist.
I think this helps bring real meaning to the Whitelist without the hobbyist having to write a bunch of reviews or forcing them to see a provider 3 or more times when he would rather spend it on someone else(not that reviews arent important). This also help mitigate extreme cases like mine with the Pornstar.
With one exception, I've never requested a white list. I hope that a lady feels comfortable enough with me to provide one without me asking. There's been a couple chicks (not currently on the scene) I've seen between 10-20 times that never white listed me.
Usually it's not make or break. In my opinion, chicks place more emphasis on your profile and/or review history than how many white lists you have.
Rock on all! It's only rock and roll
Agreed Bucky which is making it pretty much obsolete. I dont think I have ever asked for a Whitelist and I dont really write reviews. Which has been both a gift and a curse.
Again I would just like to leave this community in a better place than I found it. I am simply brainstorming about a Graylist and trying to put some efficiency and integrity back into what a Whitelists means as a basic "sanity check" tool rather than as close as you get to "client reviewing".
Where we as Hobbyists and Providers alike dont have to go through an arduous "newbie" screening process because our reviews are old or dont have many if any. I am just not into writing reviews for ladies that have a lot already(most of the providers I see). While I understand it might have some additional value, it feels like I am pouring a glass of water into the ocean. Furthermore, it doesnt force me to see the same provider 3-4 time until she is ok with referencing me/whitelisting/ or OK'ing me thus her credibility/reputation being associated with me.
I just thought it was a good idea to have a Whitelist/Graylist/Blacklist as step one in a more efficient and objective Provider screening and see the hobbyist who pretty much are flying UTR (beside my board posts..lol) without a bunch of reviews. Additionally, preventing Hobbyist from being to beholding to continuously seeing a provider just to be OK'ed.
I guess I was thinking of something along the lines of:
Whitelist: "I see you are Whitelisted, let me check a couple of your White and Gray list references and mild background screening then we are good to go!."
Graylist: "I see you have seen a couple of providers but are still relatively new to the seen. Let me take a look at your reviews and check your Gray references, as we may not be what you are looking" Checks graylist reads any related Provider 2-3 line summary about Hobbyist that is only visible to Providers and determines if they would see the individual.
Blacklist: No good/self-explanatory
Newbie: "Application is needed, employment verification, etc etc etc"
Again I know there are probably holes in this vision but hey .. let's have the conversation.
Rule #1 - The Golden Rule
Rule #2 - I care what you think...I just don't care what you think about me.
I'm a firm believer in "The Golden Rule". In my experience, it has served me very well.
I've often wondered what would happen if providers had a mirror site on TER where they rated their "friends" on "performance", "appearance", and other factors important to them (gentlemanliness?, respectfulness? generosity?). Wow, how some egos would tumble LOL.
We are all born with our appearance and other physical characteristics (you know what I mean). We just have to work with what God gave us. Performance, on the other hand, is something that can be practiced and improved...always striving for perfection.
Personally, in the hobby specifically and in life generally, I strive to leave a positive impression on everyone I interact with. Regarding the hobby, when I walk out the door I get satisfaction from knowing I did my best to earn a "10" for the factors I had control over. Based on my experience, if I do that the reputation and referrals will take care of themselves.
However, after diligently applying Rule #1, we must apply Rule #2 so that we have the freedom to move on to the next adventure with sanity and happiness.
Just my opinion. Keep up the good work ladies and gents
a few times, and I've got to say that it is soooo disappointing in many ways.
Hell, no one can agree on a what a white list really is and what purpose(s) it should be used for! How can one define criteria for it if the intended use isn't defined? Or, for that matter, criticize someone else whose opinion and perception differs?
Do we want whitelists to be a client screening/verification tool like P411 OKs and Date-Check verifications? A review of hobbyists? A simple "thank you" or compliment from provider to hobbyist? Something else?
What do you want it to be???? Answer that, and it can be made to be so. No answer, and it will not change; all discussion is just pissing into the wind. It is up to the PROVIDERS to decide what they want it to be, as they are the ones that have to give them!!
In a similar thread on the GD, I stated that I see it as nothing more than a compliment from a provider to me; an acknowledgement that they appreciated me. Consistent with that, I'll never ask for a Whitelist as it would defeat the genuineness of that gesture. It is personal and has nothing to do with another provider or hobbyist; it has no screening or "hobbyist" review value.
If a provider wants to review me... fine. I invite it. I make no secret of who I am, my posts and reviews are me, not an alias, not a new handle every 6 months. Just define what a hobbyist review needs to consist of, and put it on the S&P board!! And yes, I know some hobbyists will cringe at the thought... but fuck them. They can own their shit as far as I'm concerned.
Is it a screening and verification service? Define what the hell is needed to do that, ladies! What do you need to know? Agree, suggest it and support it on the S&P, I for one will back it up! Is it OK if one provider has my full name, work, etc, info and WL's me, and then others can do so just on my handle (which is associated with that personal data)? Or do you each and every one need it? Do we trust TER with it, like we do P411/DC? Remember the mod flips/outings not so many years ago? Yep, no domestic member mods anymore.... good reason.
Possibly what pisses me off the most in what I've read is the "yeah, but maybe he will become a jerk some time in the future" argument. Yeah... and so could SHE - didn't a provider just talk about a $1000 ROB in this very thread? Stupid argument from both sides. ANYONE can change over time; matter of fact, if they don't they are probably DEAD. We review and recommend based upon a short interaction all the time, nearly every time. Get over it; we have short trysts for the most part - and I mean guys and gals alike. Let's reality check the predicting the future arguments, OK?
My suggestion?
Get over the sense of entitlement guys. You get a compliment if she chooses to give it. Ladies, decide what you want WL's to be or stop overcomplicating the process of giving a compliment.
Yeah, I may be wrong and full of shit. Fine. I'll deal with it.
Flame away
Very thoughtful and meaningful response. I posted ...not sure its actually up yet... a couple of thoughts what a suspected a Whitelist, Graylist and Blacklist would entail. I think you are right on the money for the most part. The only part I take exception is that I dont think there is any wrong with Hobbyist adding to the conversation. Ultimately, the Providers are the ones who would be using it, so their voice is both ideal and necessary in having a meaningful and working tool.
Just as it is incredibly ignorant and irresponsible for us as Hobbyist to ignore Providers input about reviews and the review system(most have legitimate points with some who just dont like they got a 9 instead of a 10); I think our opinions and ideas as Hobbyist should be heard and respected even if they are not internalized or integrated. This is a community ... in order for it to get better it takes THE COMMUNITY.
we should have a voice, too. But the decision....
Listen, even if there was a "Gray List",
Not one provider approaches a new CLIENT KNOWING what to expect. Everything about the hobby is ymmv. All we know is we're going to do our best to uphold what you read about in our reviews and/or what we advertise. Not every provider accepts whitelist or even blacklist as a deal maker or breaker. A discussion came up on another board about this:
A girl chose to see a guy with one blacklist because it seemed (to her) that it was done out of revenge. We KNOW this happens as providers. Trust me. We are well aware that we may be wrong in some decisions but we can only follow what we feel at the end of the day. Your screening is just a little leverage.
I actually JUST declined a p411 guy with 16 Okays because the things in his profile let me know that the chemistry just would not be there. I was turned off by just his profile. There are numerous of things (some even ridiculous) that can make a provider say no. A gray list will just be another little piece & no different. It won't change ANYTHING except make us identify who is newbie & who is not a little easier. lol which is pretty obvious anyway.
And some girls actually have in their booking form a field or even a different form for newbies or guys with few references. You guys DO have a voice and a say in things. But NOT in our screening or referencing process. That is not how this hobby works. WHO the hell would allow a hobbyist to have a say in their screening just because they find it to be difficult. I just think that is NUTS! We screen in a way that works for US because it is US face some pretty f'd up things happening to us, or our families, or other girls. Same thing goes for you guys and reviews.
EVERYTHING IN THE HOBBY IS YMMV. NONE OF US KNOW WHAT WE'RE GETTING. SOME REVIEWERS JUDGE HARSHER THAN OTHERS, SOME TOO EASY, SOME GIRLS REQUIRE SEMEN SAMPLES FOR SCREENING, SOME GIRLS ONLY WANT A LOLLIPOP.
IT IS WHAT IT IS!!!!
So you said all that to say since the process wouldnt be perfect therefore we shouldnt try to improve upon it?
Look no one is telling YOU how to screen(and I wish you would stop pretending to speak for all providers by saying stuff like "OUR" screening), do your thing. Generally, speaking TER, BD, p411 and other verifications services for the hobby are General Starting points(there are providers who are exceptions but I think for most it is). They arent perfect screening and many dont them to be; however, they are centralized communities that Providers and Hobbyist alike can leverage for screening process, reviews, advice, tips, information etc etc etc.
No one is saying a Graylist is the" end all be all one stop you will ever need to screen people" but I feel it could be an improvement on the current process. Most substantial changes in anything starts off with incremental improvements of small things. Both Providers and Hobbyist alike sharing ideas, experience and recommendations is how we improve things. I get what you are saying with the p411 guy and not knowing what to expect. However, what I dont get is why you keep translating this from something to improve a specific part of the process to "Hobbyist telling providers how to screen". It's a tool that by your own admission you hardly ever use, so I dont understand how anyone is telling you how to screen. Again, I think that for most providers none of the verifications systems are the "end all be all" for their screening process. Rather a piece of the puzzle and if we can improve that piece to make the entire system more meaningful and efficient then let's try.
Honestly, I am one who tends to reject the logic "if it dont make it perfect then why even try?" .... it feels like saying "we cant ever stop crime so why arrest people?"(similar logic with extreme example to illustrate the fallacy) Simply because we arent making the system (society in my analogy) perfect, doesnt mean we should stop trying to make it better. All I am saying if what I proposed has holes in it let's try to fix them(I really do acknowledge the YMMV problems you pointed out but that was the whole point of a Graylist).... There are a million reasons why we shouldnt ever do something and someone will always find a way to abuse any system but I ask would a Graylist make it better, worse or would it be the same?
(also not EVERYTHING IS YMMV if a guy has raped, killed, assaulted, etc etc a provider, I am pretty sure that reasonable people in the community would agree that is Blacklist material with no gray area whatsoever.)
Oh and please stop trying to define "how this hobby works" for me. I have been in it for years, simply because your perspective of things isnt the same as mine doesnt mean either of us is wrong or have all the answers.
I leave at that and for the greater community to discuss and make recommendation to TER. I am glad I started the conversation and maybe something tangible will come out of it, maybe not. Either way this is definitely my last post on the subject and my last week or so in the TER community, so ultimately it is a something those who would be here after me would be interested. I honestly believe that neither Providers nor Hobbyist have the patents on good ideas, fair criticism nor meaningful insight.
Not a chance! I completely fucking applaud you for this post!
Yep..mmmhhhmmm 
exactly!
Hugs and kisses
TL
...See link. White List FAQ's.
Frankly this could just muddy the waters since vouch for would need to be defined.
...See link.
BWHAHAHHAA!!! yeah we definitely want to be on anyone's whitelist with that version of "Vouch" for a Hobbyst.
but inline with what I have always been told.
That pic is hilarious Giselle!! 
Hugs and kisses
TL