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Politics and Religion

Honda, you are now arguing against yourself.
JackDunphy 764 reads
posted

In an earlier post, you state torture doesn't work MOST of the time. I would even argue that, but,let's say you are correct,with that assessment.

By implication, if it doesn't work most of the time, therefore it means it DOES work SOME of the time.

Look, heads of CIA and NSA under both Dems and R's say it works. Leon Panetta has stated, and I have linked her several times, that enhanced interrogation methods aided in capturing bin Laden.

Alan Dershowitz has documented numerous times where "torture" has worked.

In world war 2 he points out that many in the French Resistance gave up their plans, friends and family to the Nazis.

Captured Nazi U boat commanders were tortured by the British Navy and gave up valuable info.

I am sure many give up false info, and some are so psyched up or so hardened that they do not provide accurate or any info at times, but you can NEVER make a blanket statement of what ALL would do.

Look how effective good cop, bad cop tactics are.  

Can you imagine thinking you were going to die and NO ONE giving up info in that case?

Utterly preposterous, by historical example and by common sense, of how different people will react to different persuasive methods.

HONDA3336 reads

Ray Odierno, “I remind everybody that us leaving at the end of 2011 was negotiated in 2008 by the Bush administration."


U.S. Army Chief of Staff Gen. Raymond Odierno said on Wednesday that Republican presidential candidate Jeb Bush was wrong to blame the Obama administration for the current instability in Iraq. Ahead of his official retirement on Friday, Odierno, the former highest-ranking officer in Iraq and one of the architects of the 2007 troop surge there, sought to set the record straight.

“I remind everybody that us leaving at the end of 2011 was negotiated in 2008 by the Bush administration. That was always the plan, we had promised them that we would respect their sovereignty,” Odierno said during his final press conference at the Pentagon.

In a speech on Tuesday at the Reagan Library in California, Bush criticized President Barack Obama and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton for what he characterized as a premature decision to bring 90,000 troops home.

I know "facts" will never stop GOP righties from pushing their Iraq war revisionist history claims, perhaps this will clear up once and for all, which POTUS was/is responsible for the instability in Iraq. Some will argue that U.S. Army Chief of Staff Gen.Odierno, the former highest-ranking officer in Iraq and one of the architects of the 2007 troop surge there, obviously doesn't know WTF he's talking about......lol

http://www.defenseone.com/threats/2015/08/odierno-wades-gop-war-over-iraq-war/119083/

 


-- Modified on 8/13/2015 5:51:40 PM

Related Link: Gen. Odierno

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JackDunphy817 reads

Now I ask you Honda. Was Iraq "stable" when Barry said so or ws he lying?

Related Link: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/flashback-obama-we-re-leaving-behind-...

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HONDA794 reads

............of Iraq. So who were we to go against the wishes of a sovereign DEMOCRATIC nation. JD, are you suggesting we should have stayed in Iraq against the wishes of Iraqi citizens just like the Russian's have done in Croatia?

WSJ interviews Prime Minister Maliki..

Iraqi Prime Minister Maliki wants U.S. OUT!  

Prime Minister Maliki ....

"The last American soldier will leave Iraq" as agreed, he said, speaking at his office in a leafy section of Baghdad's protected Green Zone. "This agreement is not subject to extension, not subject to alteration. It is sealed."
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970204685004576045700275218580

-- Modified on 8/13/2015 7:35:17 PM
Related Link: Iraqi PM wants U.S. out

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BigPapasan834 reads

...want the U.S. to violate Starfleet General Order 1, the Prime Directive  AKA the Non-Interference Directive?

One of Starfleet's most important ethical principles is non-interference with other cultures and civilizations (except if Kirk wants to bang a hot alien).

"A starship captain's most solemn oath is that he will give his life, even his entire crew, rather than violate the Prime Directive."
– James Tiberius Kirk

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JackDunphy751 reads

Maliki said that after he certainly knew OBAMA had reassured him of same.

And if not, there were ways to convince him otherwise. Money and security are two BIG motivators.

That is what the most powerful man in the free world has to do at times.

But you may have noticed, Barry isn't the greatest at bringing people to his side.

Obamacare? Most people started out in favor. Obama went out to defend it from critics and to point to all the goodies, and when the public found out the truth, public support plummeted.

You just witnessed the same with the Iranian deal. He says come with me on this one, the peeps go the other way.

We are still in Korea, Germany and Japan, some 70 years later.

Surely Mr. TelePrompter could have convinced Maliki to leave some troops around for a bit? Unless you think Obama is THAT weak?

 

Hmmmmmmmm.....

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HONDA1287 reads

.......for the mess he left in Iraq. A mess that Obama has tried to clean up. Check!

When I threw the shoe in the face of the criminal, George Bush, I wanted to express my rejection of his lies, his occupation of my country, my rejection of his killing my people. My rejection of his plundering the wealth of my country, and destroying its infrastructure. And casting out its sons into a diaspora. [/quote

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Hpygolky724 reads

Now that WAS a lie...as was the war...but that's another drawn out issue.

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mattradd750 reads

Bush III!   ;)

Related Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/jeb-bush-torture_55cd0b36e4b055a6daafdf83?kvcommref...

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HONDA830 reads

........maybe Bush III hopes the same will work for him. Trump is promising a never before seen grand entrance to the Iowa State fair on Saturday. All this free air time for Trump and he's having a ball as well..lol
 

Posted By: mattradd
Bush III!   ;)

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bigguy30963 reads

The truth hurts but people need to be reminded of the facts.
This war is the reason why we have Isis and dump!

 

 

Posted By: HONDA
Ray Odierno, “I remind everybody that us leaving at the end of 2011 was negotiated in 2008 by the Bush administration."  
   
 
 U.S. Army Chief of Staff Gen. Raymond Odierno said on Wednesday that Republican presidential candidate Jeb Bush was wrong to blame the Obama administration for the current instability in Iraq. Ahead of his official retirement on Friday, Odierno, the former highest-ranking officer in Iraq and one of the architects of the 2007 troop surge there, sought to set the record straight.  
   
 “I remind everybody that us leaving at the end of 2011 was negotiated in 2008 by the Bush administration. That was always the plan, we had promised them that we would respect their sovereignty,” Odierno said during his final press conference at the Pentagon.  
   
 In a speech on Tuesday at the Reagan Library in California, Bush criticized President Barack Obama and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton for what he characterized as a premature decision to bring 90,000 troops home.
   
 I know "facts" will never stop GOP righties from pushing their Iraq war revisionist history claims, perhaps this will clear up once and for all, which POTUS was/is responsible for the instability in Iraq. Some will argue that U.S. Army Chief of Staff Gen.Odierno, the former highest-ranking officer in Iraq and one of the architects of the 2007 troop surge there, obviously doesn't know WTF he's talking about......lol  
   
 http://www.defenseone.com/threats/2015/08/odierno-wades-gop-war-over-iraq-war/119083/  
   
   
 

-- Modified on 8/13/2015 5:51:40 PM

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marikod734 reads

His brother and most of the righties on the board would never admit that the bush admin did use torture

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JackDunphy845 reads

Why would anyone rule out something that could save thousands of innocent American lives?

The thought of that is not only absurd but incredibly naive

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bigguy301029 reads

Just remember it puts our own US military people in more danger and increases hate around the world.
How can we talk to Cuba or China about their human rights issues.
If this country is doing the same thing?
The logic you express does not make any sense.

 

Posted By: JackDunphy
Why would anyone rule out something that could save thousands of innocent American lives?  
   
 The thought of that is not only absurd but incredibly naive.  
   
 

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marikod692 reads

part of homeland security in “ticking bomb” type of cases. Here is how you do it. Congress or the president by executive order authorizes a procedure where the CIA is permitted to apply for a warrant to torture before the FISA or similar court. The standard to get the warrant is very high – clear danger of a substantial and imminent harm -not a threat-  to American citizens and the warrant comes with specific limitations as to what can be done and the duration of the torture. The torture must be filmed with a neutral observer and a doctor must be present.

      That is not what the Bush admin did. They tortured in secret and without limitations except for the phony Yoo legal opinion.  There was no neutral observer. They went on fishing expeditions –“this guy was Osama’s cat sitter- he must know something . Put him on the rack” –  just to get info on Osama rather than because there was any kind of ticking bomb.  They did film some of the torture but of course destroyed the tapes because they knew what happen if the tapes became public.  

       And then of course the Bush admin LIED  about whether they had tortured anybody. Look at the habeas corpus cases where Gitmo detainees were released bc the only evidence the government had was obtained by torture. In many cases, the gov DID NOT EVEN CONTEST that torture was used.

At least Jeb is honest about using torture – not like his brother

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HONDA745 reads

If you want actionable intelligence, you do that by getting a voluntary statement. I could probably get someone, to admit to being the second shooter at that AME Church in Charleston, SC, if I use the the right techniques, buts that's a worthless confession.

DAVID IGLESIAS, Former Guantanamo Prosecutor on Torture: No, it doesn’t work. A prosecutor always wants to get a voluntary statement with reliable information. And in every case that the Senate committee looked at, the actual evidence used came from nonabusive interrogation tactics. For example take the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, he gave the name of Mukhtar, who was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, this was done through the traditional law enforcement model of rapport-based interrogation.

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marikod820 reads

but refuses to tell us which one, the Honda Administration would not obtain a warrant to torture him because “torture  has been proven in most cases to lead to inaccurate information?”

        How about we torture him and, if he gives us the wrong location, we come back and torture him again until he gives us the right one?

       Of course, your assertion that “torture  has been proven in most cases to lead to inaccurate information” is pure speculation. There have been absolutely ZERO peer reviewed studies on this and there never will be bc we torture in secret and we can’t always tell whether the info obtained was reliable or not. In the Gitmo habeas corpus cases the gov –both Bush and Obama administrations – refused to litigate exactly what they did when the detainee alleged torture.

       But my assumption is that, depending on the degree of torture used, torture does “work” in some degree of cases and in the ticking bomb case where the defendant admits to planting the bomb, or in other similar cases where a neutral third party issues a warrant, it would be insane to allow the bomb to explode without taking a shot at torture.

 
        Nothing personal, Honda, but I’m going to vote for Donald Trump instead of you because he has a little more real world sense.

Posted By: HONDA
If you want actionable intelligence, you do that by getting a voluntary statement. I could probably get someone, to admit to being the second shooter at that AME Church in Charleston, SC, if I use the the right techniques, buts that's a worthless confession.  
   
DAVID IGLESIAS, Former Guantanamo Prosecutor on Torture: No, it doesn’t work. A prosecutor always wants to get a voluntary statement with reliable information. And in every case that the Senate committee looked at, the actual evidence used came from nonabusive interrogation tactics. For example take the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, he gave the name of Mukhtar, who was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, this was done through the traditional law enforcement model of rapport-based interrogation.
   
 

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GaGambler740 reads

Have you been peeking over my shoulder in class today? lol

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JackDunphy609 reads

The problem isn't that "torture" doesn't work.

The problem is...is that it does.

Any student of history, or anyone that understands the human condition just a little, knows this to be true.

We can scream and cry and gnash our teeth wishing and hoping it wasn't, but the facts show it does for some.

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HONDA796 reads

The Senate Intelligence Committee did not find a single iota of evidence that the CIA torture of detainee's helped. If you think torture is the end all, be all, just give me 10 minutes or so, using the standard waterboard technique, I would have most of the righties here squealing that they were actually closeted communists.........lol

 


-- Modified on 8/14/2015 2:22:50 PM

Related Link: U.S. Senate Committee Report on Torture.

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JackDunphy765 reads

In an earlier post, you state torture doesn't work MOST of the time. I would even argue that, but,let's say you are correct,with that assessment.

By implication, if it doesn't work most of the time, therefore it means it DOES work SOME of the time.

Look, heads of CIA and NSA under both Dems and R's say it works. Leon Panetta has stated, and I have linked her several times, that enhanced interrogation methods aided in capturing bin Laden.

Alan Dershowitz has documented numerous times where "torture" has worked.

In world war 2 he points out that many in the French Resistance gave up their plans, friends and family to the Nazis.

Captured Nazi U boat commanders were tortured by the British Navy and gave up valuable info.

I am sure many give up false info, and some are so psyched up or so hardened that they do not provide accurate or any info at times, but you can NEVER make a blanket statement of what ALL would do.

Look how effective good cop, bad cop tactics are.  

Can you imagine thinking you were going to die and NO ONE giving up info in that case?

Utterly preposterous, by historical example and by common sense, of how different people will react to different persuasive methods.

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HONDA673 reads

.......probably 24hrs or so but eventually ALL righties here would start squealing that they were closeted Communists.  Happy now....lol



-- Modified on 8/14/2015 3:20:29 PM

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HONDA680 reads

Unfortunately ISIS has learned a thing or two about how we dress and treat prisoners at Gitmo and so have incorporated our techniques into their captured prisoner program, except for the beheadings of course. Sen. McCain who knows more about torture than any of us has spoken vehemently against the CIA torture program.

Related Link: Link

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marikod625 reads

Or did you start seeing red as soon as mentioned torture should be one tool available to Homeland Security?

 
      I posted that torture is a LAST RESORT REMEDY available only in a “ticking bomb” type of case where the government is able to meet very high standards in order to get a warrant to torture.

How in the world do you go from that to “if you think torture is the be all and all….”?

    And why are you focusing on the Gitmo detainees, none of whom were even suspected of having ticking bomb knowledge, and whether that "helped"

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