Politics and Religion

I was going to reply when I first read this... but decided to wait for others...
DoctorGonzo 106 Reviews 559 reads
posted

... because I wanted to see if anyone else would READ and comment on your post, or simply provide a predictable partisan (depending on the posters leanings) reaction to the title of your post.

Posted By: bigguy30
When you read Jack comments all you can see is bullshit and his red white racist face.  
So let's hear from people who know what they are talking about and deal with only facts!  
Certainly didn't disappoint; and a perfect example of your lament about ...
Posted By: JackDunphy
when it deteriorates to ad hominems, or just dismissing someone's point with no counter argument at all, and all of us just talking past each other and deflecting every thought, idea or plan...well, I have no fun doing that day after day.

 
And while I am in agreement with mrtatmit (and have said as much), it doesn't appear he read your comments either.

OK - so much for that...

-----

JD, welcome to the club... I've seen this board go from mildly amusing to downright appalling over the years... there was a time when the rhetoric was no less passionate but far more substantial. Much less so today what with the likes of  the Planet Stupid Maroons running around unleashed.

Like most anything else, it comes and goes in waves... but the extremes on both the right and the left have pretty much strained the limits of rational thinking, replaced with partisan hackery, rhetoric, or single minded tunnel-vision perspectives.

JackDunphy2222 reads

Ok, Obama is really nothing like Hitler but I thought that headline would grab your attention. LOL

Just thought I'd bring up a subject I haven't seen here in a very, long time, if ever.

From my own personal experience on this board, which isn't nearly as long as some of you, it seems that the discourse lately has degraded to vitriol, personal attacks, talking past each other, using forms of arguments ONLY to piss off or enrage.

How would I know? I used some of them. LOL. I can still hear my freshman football coach saying whenever you point your finger at someone else, notice you have three fingers pointing back at yourself. Corny as hell I though, but true.

I have had the opportunity to speak to some of you bc over the course of the last several days, and some peeps have been here longer than me, agreed that the board now, is as bad or worse than it has ever been. I know, some may disagree, but I think everyone would proly agree it isn't good.

I pm'd a few people I have never, ever communicated with outside of the posts on this board and was pleased how my pm was received. I know some of you don't have pm's so I know you may not have the ability to hit me back. Those that did, and you know who you are (lol), I appreciate the time you took and your insight.

My issue is, when the board gets to the point where Matt and I cant have a civil discussion, when we used to all the time with very little problem, I know it is off the tracks, as I have respect for Matt and his military service and have told him so several times.  

Imo, Matt argues in a way I find frustrating at times but that doesn't make him wrong or a bad guy. I would think he would proly say the same about me. Buts that's who Matt is and thats who I am, so I don't think our STYLES can change but maybe our APPROACH to each other and reaction to each other can. So that's an olive branch out to Matt, BP, Laffy, Mari, Honda and any others here I may be forgetting and for those who want to reciprocate in kind.

Personally, I don't come to this board to bicker only. Arguing is fun, lots of fun at times, but when it deteriorates to ad hominems, or just dismissing someone's point with no counter argument at all, and all of us just talking past each other and deflecting every thought, idea or plan...well, I have no fun doing that day after day.

I learn something here almost every day form liberals. Hearing the other side, it makes me research an issue so I become more informed. It sharpens my debate skills in other forums and lets us know we are all not right with every opinion or belief we hold. Sometimes, the other side does have a cogent point.

I am not expecting every person on this board to suddenly act like brothers in arms. Nor is this any king of kumbaya moment, but it does seem virtually everyone of us, me at the top of the list, could be a bit more civil and tone down the vitriol.

I have been on other political boards before, I have seen this happen on there as well, even on a group email chain with friends of mine and have seen this stuff happen. Sometimes we need a reset. I am asking for like minded people here to do so.

Like I said, I am not going to point fingers. When I have brought up the POTUS racism, or perceived racism on my part it is an honest belief, but I do acknowledge it does not further reasoned debate, in fact, it crushes it. I feel I made my feelings known about it, ad nauseum (lol), and have no reason at this point to continue down that road. That is just one example.  

Of course we will all make our wise ass comments and point to "facts" in links to make our one sided points at time. Hyperbole will never leave a board like this, nor should it. Ball busting will remain, it HAS to, LOL.

But when many guys have someone on ignore, or many just ignore without using the actual ignore button, it just lessens and lessens the chance for a great thread, imho. Too many guys have written off guys here they use to post and reply to. Maybe we can turn the clocks back on some of those?

Anyway, I just thought I would address this to the group, maybe get a few comments, maybe hear from a few with a different perspective about this I may not be aware or whatever.

I just remember this board being MUCH more fun a few months ago and I thought I would address my sense of its deterioration and hope it ebbs to a bit.

Thanks for hearing me out.

(P.S.- BP, I didn't put a link to this post as "righties" never do. LOL. I couldn't find one that proved my headline. Well, I did actually but I didnt want to totally destroy my rep by linking to Trumps blog! LOL

bigguy30693 reads

When you read Jack comments all you can see is bullshit and his red white racist face.
So let's hear from people who know what they are talking about and deal with only facts!

GaGambler643 reads

But BP's post said basically the same thing.

Some people here are simply TSTTT, and others are just impossible to talk to.  

but if BP and I can be civil to each other, and even disagree without being "too" disagreeable, anybody here "should" be able to do the same.

BTW, it looks like bigguy didn't even read your post, he just went into stupid mode like he always does and started spouting shit completely unrelated to your OP. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

As for others here, they can, and will do, what they want. Not sure why anyone would trash my op, but that's on them and it is their prerogative.

And for the other guys who haven't weighed in, I'd like to hear your thoughts, if you have a moment and feel like it, or pm me if you would rather

bigguy30555 reads

So again I will let this link answer you dumb ass comment.
I guess going to war with the wrong country years ago was not enough for you clowns.
You all act like babies wanting to fight everybody.

Posted By: mrtatmit
the seeds are now being sown for wwIII  
   
   
 

nuguy46578 reads

except the Socialist Sanders....
and the chant 'Bush lied" needs some proof. Even Bob Woodward who has published numerous books on the subject has said there is no proof Bush lied. time will tell about Obama's deal.....as it has about Clinton's deal to stop N.Korea.

bigguy30517 reads

So yes most not all Dems voted for that liar GW Bush war.
The bad part is keep following the lies the GOP keep putting out there and not learning from their scams!

Posted By: nuguy46
except the Socialist Sanders....  
 and the chant 'Bush lied" needs some proof. Even Bob Woodward who has published numerous books on the subject has said there is no proof Bush lied. time will tell about Obama's deal.....as it has about Clinton's deal to stop N.Korea.

Every human being on the planet was convincingly lied to by Bush, Cheney, what's his name Secretary of Defense, neocon gang and forced General Powell to lie in the UN. Let's not forget puppy dog, Tony Blair!  

Do you really think, China, Russia and France would supported the UNresolution?

Do you really think, any American in their right mind would have supported invading Iraq, if truth was known then?

May be only  his bro Jibber Jabber

thisbud4u655 reads

Bush lied to the whole country, lied to Congress, then he sent Colin Powell to lie to the world.    That is the reason, France, Germany and Russia did not join.    There was positive proof from IAEA inspectors that there was no sign of any WMD.

Remember that:   "it will cost $80 billion to $85 billion, will last 4 to 5  weeks and a casualty of not more than 100".    There is your lie.    And then the "Mission Accomplished" and ending with those shoes hurled at him at a press conference.

You need to do your homework before you bark, sparkly.    If I were you, I would quit posting here.

Is only exceed by by you ignorance.  

Iran has never expressed a desire to conquer the world. Iran is a signatory of NPT, so they have the sovereign right to use nuclear technology for peaceful purposes like, power generation, medicine, and other peaceful use. There are literally hundreds peaceful use.

Before you start howling about something, you should know something about the subject. If not, it is just dog howling at its own shadows.  

Follow the link and educate yourself before howling at your shadow.

You call someone "stupid" in your subject line, but then open your post with this sentence:  "Is only exceed by by you ignorance."   I imagine learning proper sentence structure was not a priority as you were becoming an expert on nuclear technology and shadows.  I really didn't know that dogs have multiple shadows.  Thanks for that relevant, useful information.

negotiating a deal for the Russians to reduce their stockpile of nuclear weapons? Would you say they are more trustworthy than the Iranians? Were they, and are they not a greater threat to our security than Iran?

... because I wanted to see if anyone else would READ and comment on your post, or simply provide a predictable partisan (depending on the posters leanings) reaction to the title of your post.

Posted By: bigguy30
When you read Jack comments all you can see is bullshit and his red white racist face.  
So let's hear from people who know what they are talking about and deal with only facts!  
Certainly didn't disappoint; and a perfect example of your lament about ...
Posted By: JackDunphy
when it deteriorates to ad hominems, or just dismissing someone's point with no counter argument at all, and all of us just talking past each other and deflecting every thought, idea or plan...well, I have no fun doing that day after day.

 

And while I am in agreement with mrtatmit (and have said as much), it doesn't appear he read your comments either.

OK - so much for that...

-----

JD, welcome to the club... I've seen this board go from mildly amusing to downright appalling over the years... there was a time when the rhetoric was no less passionate but far more substantial. Much less so today what with the likes of  the Planet Stupid Maroons running around unleashed.

Like most anything else, it comes and goes in waves... but the extremes on both the right and the left have pretty much strained the limits of rational thinking, replaced with partisan hackery, rhetoric, or single minded tunnel-vision perspectives.

It would be nice to go back the more substantial dialogue of the past you mention.

My own personal opinion, is that most here are good guys and some of us, myself included, just got into a "rut" of hyper-partisanship and slash and burn speech.

Now there are some that have zero desire to rationally debate anything and there was never any chance of seeing any change from them. Maybe they will surprise me?

But maybe others know what I am referring to i.e. being in a rut, and just making a minor outlook change will enable them to get the train back on track. Its never going to be to anyone's 100% approval, but this is by far the worst I have seen it since being here.

There are 4 or 5 guys here who almost always take the high road, while still participating in vigorous debate at times...maybe 4 or 5 at the bottom who look to be partisan in each and every post and the rest of us in the middle.

It wont be that hard for me to jump from the middle of the pack to the top group but it would be easier if I brought 8-10 guys with me, who were real good posters a month or so ago, but may have hit the same rut I did.

Thanks for your rational and reasoned post. It was sorely needed after the initial responses on this thread! lol

bigguy30448 reads

The problem for you and others like you are being call out for your bullshit comments.
If you want to believe in lies fine.
Just stop quoting it as facts.  

 

 

Posted By: JackDunphy
It would be nice to go back the more substantial dialogue of the past you mention.  
   
 My own personal opinion, is that most here are good guys and some of us, myself included, just got into a "rut" of hyper-partisanship and slash and burn speech.  
   
 Now there are some that have zero desire to rationally debate anything and there was never any chance of seeing any change from them. Maybe they will surprise me?  
   
 But maybe others know what I am referring to i.e. being in a rut, and just making a minor outlook change will enable them to get the train back on track. Its never going to be to anyone's 100% approval, but this is by far the worst I have seen it since being here.  
   
 There are 4 or 5 guys here who almost always take the high road, while still participating in vigorous debate at times...maybe 4 or 5 at the bottom who look to be partisan in each and every post and the rest of us in the middle.  
   
 It wont be that hard for me to jump from the middle of the pack to the top group but it would be easier if I brought 8-10 guys with me, who were real good posters a month or so ago, but may have hit the same rut I did.  
   
 Thanks for your rational and reasoned post. It was sorely needed after the initial responses on this thread! lol

... I've posted more than one "rant" over the years addressing the exact same subject matter. I usually wound up taking a step back and walking away... even "rage quit" back in 2007... for about 3 weeks.  

Over the years, I've come to realize that this particular board is uniquely and completely out of place; a politics and religion themed discussion forum on a fuck board.

But it has a compelling magnetism to it... much in the same way some traffic slows down as you approach the site of an accident because people are compelled to stare at the carnage as they drive past... some people simply can't help themselves... others don't realize they're off track and cause a fresh wreck themselves... and voila!! You get Planet Stupid and the Loney Toon Maroon Squad.

In truth, the only thing it seems the participants of this board can agree on is that everybody loves pussy.

thisbud4u560 reads

...use President Obama and Hitler in the same sentence after what the world saw of Dubiya for 8 years.    

If you wanted attention that desperate you could have said "Another of our most wanted  terrorist responsible for 9/11 reportedly lived and died in Pakistan, our most trusted ally in our war on terror (quote from Dubiya and Darth Vader)

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regarding his comments on Obama and the Iranian nuclear deal. Yet, Jack did not respond to that point in the OP where I address it along with Huckabee's hypocrisy. And, I vaguely remember hearing this line of mia copa, and 'can't we all just get along,' sometime back. Me thinks Laffy may be on to something when he suggests this is just "trolling." Me thinks I will not bite!   ;)

This thread, and the headline, had absolutely nothing to do with your Mike Huckabee thread. Less than nothing. It didn't even enter my mind.  

I didn't think Huckabee had the same plan as Obama, as I thought the author of your linked piece was saying. Obama has portrayed Iran as either it was this deal or war. That wasn't Huckabees position at all. He wanted to increase sanctions, as I did.  

So since I thought the author mischarachteeized Hucks position, it was logical for me to say he wasn't being hypocritical. You alos said "hyperbolic" in that OP, and if you notice I didn't take issue with you on that as Huck was certainly over the top with what he said, but I still don't think he was hypocritical.

And if you really believe this is a troll post...well...not sure what to say to that. I would have thought with all my posts on this board you would take me as a reasonably intelligent person who makes sincere cogent points most of the time, even if you happen to disagree with them.

To put me in a class with bigguy or AF is rather stunning but you are entitled to do so. I don't know why I would reach out to several people here bc, one of them being you, if I was simply "trolling."

If you aren't going to reply to my posts, then I won't post under yours. No sense wasting my time. But the olive branch was/is sincere, even if you didn't take it that way. I am not sure what else I could have done to convince you otherwise

and no I don't thinks it's gotten all that bad. It my book, it use to be a lot worse. At one point there were people posting in such a way as to appear to posting under another users name, and misrepresenting them in a detrimental manner. And, the name calling is gone down to about zero.

On the other hand, you seem not to take it seriously enough, not to waste other people's time. Arguing just for the sake of arguing wastes my time. I come hear to express an opinion, not to change anyone's mind, or argue just to argue.

Now, here is a quote from the referred to article:

"Barack Obama also called for engagement with Iran during the 2008 campaign. And though he initially resisted a tough sanctions policy on Iran, he eventually cobbled together an international coalition to economically punish Iran all the way to the negotiating table. Like Huckabee, Obama calculated that the world community would have to show a united front. Like Huckabee, he made the case that the alternative option would be military confrontation. Like Huckabee, he believed a deal based on containment and diplomacy was smart geopolitics."

As you are oft to say, 'any reasonable person' would see this, along with Huck's comments about Obama and the oven doors, as pure hypocrisy, and pandering; though not certain in which situation he was pandering; though I would bet on the later.

Yours is the typical Republican attack where what they accuse Obama of cannot be disproved, but nor can they prove it to be true.  In this situation you suggest Obama could have made Iran capitulate further by increased sanctions. Of course you can't prove that, but do operate as though it's a point of fact, along with the assumption that we could get the other players to agree to increased sanctions.  Or that us doing so without them would carry any weight with the Iranian's. For many, they just see this argument as a ploy by the neo-cons to set up conditions for the military option.

Perhaps you have much more time so spend on this board than I do. So, don't take it too personally if I do not read or respond to everything you post.  ;

I just see the HuffPo article as a case where a liberal writer, trying to give a Dem president cover on what I truly believe is a very bad deal, brought in Huckabee, twisted what Huckabee really wanted and said, and tried to spin it as that was Obama's plan as well.

That was ridiculous. Obama has said it is this deal or war. He is the master of the false dichotomy as we saw with HC. It is a straw man.

Huckabee never agreed with that false choice and had a different idea, so the hypocrisy charge was bogus in my opinion. But no sense keep going round and round about this. We just disagree.

As for the oven comment, I wouldn't have said that, but I do think people overreacted to it. I dont think he was comparing Obama to Hitler, he was comparing Iran to Nazi Germany and claiming Obama wasn't doing enough to protect our ally.  

Now, whenever someone uses the Holocaust or Nazi comparisons, it is always problematic, in my experience and discussion usually ceases, as it did with Huck and his critics.

This is the reasoned debate I was willing to have with you in your Huckabee post Matt. You just never replied to my sincere question to your OP.

With regards to your increased sanctions point, I didnt say Iran would capitulate merely by increasing them, as you and I have discussed my alternatives in other threads.  

I never said we could get allies to agree to more sanctions. I did say if that didnt happen, for any reason, we would move along to the next part of my plan.

Had increased sanctions not worked, I would have tried a naval blockage, then hit of their oil refinery, etc. I am sure your remember that convo. I believe all of that, or less even, would make Iran give up its program.  

Am I sure? Or course not. It is an opinion. Just like it is Obama's opinion he has cut ALL pathways off for Iran to get a bomb. That is not fact either, it is his opinion, but he is proposing it as fact.

Lastly, I have never taken anyones non response to any of my posts personally so not sure where that is coming from. People can post or reply, or not, as they choose. In fact I would think it is odd if you did read or respond to everything I posted. lol

I was merely stating that I thought too many people here have decided to never reply to a certain poster's posts, when they did in the past, and I offered up a possible cease fire and rethinking of the situation, that was all. People can and will do whatever they want.

Thanks for your lengthy response. I would hope you and I could have more reasoned debate in the future. Peace...Jack.

Ok, I got your attention..... I get what you're saying and yes sometimes I want to pull my hair when I read some of what goes on here.Boards tend to take a lfe of it's own, sometimes good, sometimes not so.But this board is mild compared to the Finance board on Yahoo under BAC. Look at what goes on there...yikes....But I get you, if it matters, if not then go F yourself....lol

nom_de_plume420 reads

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