Politics and Religion

Re: Speaking of misdirection
JohnMilton_Esq 454 reads
posted

The issue of whether or not Reid told a lie goes to his assertion that someone told him that information.  But at the time and up until the present there has never been anyone who has stepped forward to take credit for this, Reid has never said who it was and has been evasive about it and  Jon Huntsman who was thought to be the source by some has specifically and vehemently denied it.  So it leaves us with Harry Reid and his “assertion” which was a lie.  His reaction NOW is important to this question.  He acts as if he is proud that he may have derailed Romney's candidacy and certainly there is “circumstantial evidence” now to believe that no one told him this information, it was a calculated attempt by Reid to damage Romney.  

Sorry Marikod, your assertion “lie-not even close” is way off the mark, imo.  I believe that Reid's own behavior now and the lack of a source after all this time points to him telling a whopper that he got a way with.  Yes, dirty politics and a lie.  

I once again linked to the recent WaPo article about this which is a good read about this situation.  One of the quotes from the piece:  “And yet, the clip above shows Reid in an interview with CNN's Dana Bash, not only refusing to apologize for the claim but defending it — in a very weird way.”  

The old POS will soon be gone, so in the big picture it doesn't matter, but it is another incident that cause many to shake their heads and declare a pox on all of them (speaking of politicians).
 
Posted By: marikod
 
 "DUANE posts a comment about Reid's lie (and let's face it, that is exactly what it was, a lie)”  
   
   
        A “lie” by definition is an unequivocal assertion that the speaker knows is false.  
   
          Reid made it clear in interviews with the press that a Bain investor had told him Romney psi no taxes for 10 years.  So Reid was repeating a statement made by a third party. Further, you ignore that Reid expressly said he was “not certain” if what the Bain investor had said was true:  
   
         During an interview with The Huffington Post in July 2012, Reid, D-Nev., said that a month or so before, a person who had invested with Bain Capital called him and told him that Romney hadn't paid any taxes for 10 years.  
            "He didn't pay taxes for 10 years!" Reid said in the interview. "Now, do I know that that's true? Well, I'm not certain. But obviously he can't release those tax returns. How would it look?"  
   
   
        Reid would subsequently tell reporters that  “a number of people had told him that.”  
   
   
        So, unless you can show that Reid made up the story of third parties telling him this, and that he knew that it was untrue, you are a long way from reaching the lie threshold.  
   
           And since Reid had no way of knowing if Romney had not paid taxes for 10 years, how could he know this was untrue?  
   
        Irresponsible? Shameful? Dirty politics? Yes. Welcome to American politics.  A lie- not even close.  
 

So the smug Harry Reid seems to think it was fine that he took to the Senate floor and lied about Romney s taxes.  Of course he was lacking the guts or conviction to say it elsewhere where he could be sued for libel.  I guess that is what politics has evolved to.

Bottom line; if Romney had been more transparent regarding his personal wealth, he probably would have received even fewer votes!  ;)

So it's ok for the leader of the Senate to support the candidate of his choice via lies about non political issues on the Senate floor?  BTW do you see the difference between Romney's own problem of paying a 15% rate and Reid's claim he (Romney) paid ZERO?  But I guess you are with Harry where the end justifies the means?  So elections should not be won on the merits but rather voters should be influenced by whoever can make up the most dirt on the other guy?  That's the country you want?

No, to all your points. I just said you sound like a sore loser, and that Romney would have lost even more votes if more information was known about his personal wealth, how he got it, and where it was.  ;  It's you who threw all that other junk in. Actually, I'd like to see our political officials, no matter what political party they're affiliated with, behave morally, legally and honestly, all the time, and in the best interests of their constituents and country, rather than themselves. However, I'm quite pessimistic when it comes to that likelihood. Perhaps, that's what you're picking up on. My pessimism!  ;)

followme453 reads

You say..."if more information was known about his personal wealth, how he got it, and where it was."

You seem to imply that YOU know all this.

How is you know all this and noone else does?

Matt are ypou all knowing?

Are you so important that you get the inside info.?

Maybe you should change your handle to "BigMatt", That way you can be closer associated with the other two "Big Ones"  on this board.    

 
You're Welcome
2016 = GOP WH, Senate and House

JohnMilton_Esq471 reads

DUANE posts a comment about Reid's lie (and let's face it, that is exactly what it was, a lie).  That lie was told in the well of the US Senate by the leader of the Democrats in the Senate.  This lie was then picked up and disseminated, no make that trumpeted, by the MSM and every lefty site.  Of course Reid knew that this would happen.  It is the dirtiest of dirty tricks and Reid used his leadership of the Senate to smear Romney with a lie.

Then, rather than address Reid's behavior as commented on by DUANE, you Matt misdirect into a comment about Romney releasing financial information.  Classic manipulation.  You should be proud of yourself, accomplished like a true politician.  You have learned well.

BTW, based on recent news reports on the topic, Reid seems to actually be proud of himself.  All you can do is shake your head and go WTF!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/03/31/harry-reids-appalling-defense-of-his-attack-on-mitt-romneys-tax-record/
 

Posted By: DUANE
So the smug Harry Reid seems to think it was fine that he took to the Senate floor and lied about Romney s taxes.  Of course he was lacking the guts or conviction to say it elsewhere where he could be sued for libel.  I guess that is what politics has evolved to.
Posted By: mattradd
Bottom line; if Romney had been more transparent regarding his personal wealth, he probably would have received even fewer votes!  ;)

DUANE posts a comment about Reid's lie (and let's face it, that is exactly what it was, a lie)”

 
       A “lie” by definition is an unequivocal assertion that the speaker knows is false.

         Reid made it clear in interviews with the press that a Bain investor had told him Romney psi no taxes for 10 years.  So Reid was repeating a statement made by a third party. Further, you ignore that Reid expressly said he was “not certain” if what the Bain investor had said was true:

        During an interview with The Huffington Post in July 2012, Reid, D-Nev., said that a month or so before, a person who had invested with Bain Capital called him and told him that Romney hadn't paid any taxes for 10 years.
           "He didn't pay taxes for 10 years!" Reid said in the interview. "Now, do I know that that's true? Well, I'm not certain. But obviously he can't release those tax returns. How would it look?"

 
       Reid would subsequently tell reporters that  “a number of people had told him that.”

 
       So, unless you can show that Reid made up the story of third parties telling him this, and that he knew that it was untrue, you are a long way from reaching the lie threshold.

          And since Reid had no way of knowing if Romney had not paid taxes for 10 years, how could he know this was untrue?  

       Irresponsible? Shameful? Dirty politics? Yes. Welcome to American politics.  A lie- not even close

JohnMilton_Esq455 reads

The issue of whether or not Reid told a lie goes to his assertion that someone told him that information.  But at the time and up until the present there has never been anyone who has stepped forward to take credit for this, Reid has never said who it was and has been evasive about it and  Jon Huntsman who was thought to be the source by some has specifically and vehemently denied it.  So it leaves us with Harry Reid and his “assertion” which was a lie.  His reaction NOW is important to this question.  He acts as if he is proud that he may have derailed Romney's candidacy and certainly there is “circumstantial evidence” now to believe that no one told him this information, it was a calculated attempt by Reid to damage Romney.  

Sorry Marikod, your assertion “lie-not even close” is way off the mark, imo.  I believe that Reid's own behavior now and the lack of a source after all this time points to him telling a whopper that he got a way with.  Yes, dirty politics and a lie.  

I once again linked to the recent WaPo article about this which is a good read about this situation.  One of the quotes from the piece:  “And yet, the clip above shows Reid in an interview with CNN's Dana Bash, not only refusing to apologize for the claim but defending it — in a very weird way.”  

The old POS will soon be gone, so in the big picture it doesn't matter, but it is another incident that cause many to shake their heads and declare a pox on all of them (speaking of politicians).
 

Posted By: marikod
 
 "DUANE posts a comment about Reid's lie (and let's face it, that is exactly what it was, a lie)”  
   
   
        A “lie” by definition is an unequivocal assertion that the speaker knows is false.  
   
          Reid made it clear in interviews with the press that a Bain investor had told him Romney psi no taxes for 10 years.  So Reid was repeating a statement made by a third party. Further, you ignore that Reid expressly said he was “not certain” if what the Bain investor had said was true:  
   
         During an interview with The Huffington Post in July 2012, Reid, D-Nev., said that a month or so before, a person who had invested with Bain Capital called him and told him that Romney hadn't paid any taxes for 10 years.  
            "He didn't pay taxes for 10 years!" Reid said in the interview. "Now, do I know that that's true? Well, I'm not certain. But obviously he can't release those tax returns. How would it look?"  
   
   
        Reid would subsequently tell reporters that  “a number of people had told him that.”  
   
   
        So, unless you can show that Reid made up the story of third parties telling him this, and that he knew that it was untrue, you are a long way from reaching the lie threshold.  
   
           And since Reid had no way of knowing if Romney had not paid taxes for 10 years, how could he know this was untrue?  
   
        Irresponsible? Shameful? Dirty politics? Yes. Welcome to American politics.  A lie- not even close.  
 

Posted By: JohnMilton_Esq
The old POS will soon be gone, so in the big picture it doesn't matter, but it is another incident that cause many to shake their heads and declare a pox on all of them (speaking of politicians).
I agree in total with your "lie" analysis but I fear Reid's lack of ethics might have a long standing negative effect on the Senate. It goes way beyond these lies. He did similar things to the Koch brothers from the well of the Senate. He introduced the "nuclear option" for Presidential appointees. He allowed Obamacare legislation to proceed under the simple majority rules of budget reconciliation. He decided to remove all question of Ways and Means constitutional irregularity by taking a House bill, stripping out 100% of the text, leaving just the House bill number, thereby supposedly maintaining the constitutional requirement that all taxes originate in the House. The obstructionism in the House has paled in comparison to Reid's in the Senate through his dispensing with "regular order" and his use of "filling the tree". The House's simply received far more press.  

I can only hope McConnell puts a halt and reverses these and other egregious practices, but I doubt they will all be reversed, thus probably Reid WILL have a lasting negative legacy.

some righties have urged that this procedure should be used to repeal Obamacare.
And I will put you down as a staunch opponent of the many  reconciliation bills  signed into law  by Republican presidents that have only a remote relation to the budget, such as arctic drilling.

          Since Reid’s use of the reconciliation procedure was perfectly lawful, your claim that Reid’s use of reconciliation to pass some portions of the ACA was “unethical” and egregious” is unsupported by the facts. The ACA did in fact change the budget deficit and was a proper subject for reconciliation, although it obviously also pushed through social changes. If the use of the procedure was improper, the Republicans could have blocked it under the Byrd rule.

         The last thing we needed was a couple of Ted Cruz wannabes filibustering in the Senate bc of Scott Brown’s brief tenure as a senator

Since you take umbrage with my post-wide characterizations of Reid's ethics and egregious behavior yet you defend only one of the points, all the other criticisms of Reid must be valid in your thinking.  

And your defense is to point to other bad behavior thus highlighting my conclusion that continuing to push the envelope never deflates the envelope. But of course extrapolating your own logic of justification, born by reconciliation then die by reconciliation.

I don't think you were around or at least not an adult during the 1950s but had you been would you have shown the same kindness towards Joe McCarthy, whose "lying" tactics were virtually the same?

JohnMilton_Esq386 reads

I think old Harry made it all up.... yep, that's called lying.



-- Modified on 4/1/2015 7:26:09 PM

Timbow436 reads

"Let him prove he has paid taxes, because he has not."

Also, we now know Romney did pay taxes.

Posted By: JohnMilton_Esq
I think old Harry made it all up.... yep, that's called

 

 


-- Modified on 4/1/2015 12:52:35 PM

and then repeated the “lie” in media interviews where he did not have immunity from defamation. That is quite a plan. You must have been his adviser LOL.  

        What you and JM-esq keep missing, however, is that Reid had no way to know whether the rumor was a lie when he repeated it. Yes, we know NOW Romney did pay taxes but we did not know then. A lot of people were speculating Romney was not releasing his tax returns bc he paid little or no taxes, so it is entirely reasonable to believe that Romney haters told Reid he paid no taxes when they did not know either.

      So while JM can fairly say he “thinks” Reid lied by making up whether a third party told him this story, that is pure speculation and – again –not even close to showing that the “no taxes” assertion actually was a lie

with the Huffington Post, Reid expressly told the reporter he was not certain if the “no taxes” charge was true.

         I quoted this in my very first post-yet somehow the learned posters who insist that Reid “lied” offered no explanation for how this could be a lie when he said he was "not certain" if the charge was true….sign. They also have no explanation for how Reid could “lie” about whether Romney paid taxes, since Reid had no way of knowing whether the charge was true or not.

 
     In fact, the only way it is even POSSIBLE for Reid to have lied about this would be if the third party had actually told Reid that Romney DID pay his taxes, and Reid then asserted the opposite. I can't negate that one

Thank you.  Though I do recall that he did not hedge his remarks on the floor.  But I also found this summary of the law with regards to statements made by Congress.  

"One might think, per Justice Story, that a Member of Congress is not acting within the scope of his or her office when making “false charges” or “defamatory imputations” to the press.  The courts, however, have found otherwise, finding that a Member’s communications with the press are generally within the scope of employment.  See, e.g. Operation Rescue Nat’l v. United States, 147 F.3d 68 (1st Cir. 1998) (Senator’s  remarks to a group of reporters following a campaign fundraiser); Williams v. United States, 71 F.3d 502 (5th Cir. 1995) (Representative’s interview on a local television station); Chapman v. Rahall, 399 F.Supp.2d 711 (W.D. Va. 2005) (same). "

So it appears the courts have given free reign to Congress.

As far as what is a lie goes, I guess nothing is a lie if it cannot proven to be so.  I saw a court decision about misleading statements regarding the future impact of a project and basically it says it cannot be a misleading statement since noone actually knows the future.  So once again, we have free reign to say whatever we want.

provide immunity for defamation made to the media, you are correct that the Westfall Act would do so if the defamation was made in the scope of employment for a Senator. And since Reid gave the interview in his Senate office during business hours, I think that would clearly be in the scope of employment.

        So as much as I enjoyed spanking Timbow for his emphasis on the Senate Floor statement, I was certainly wrong when I said no immunity for the media interviews.  

       Thanks for the correction

JohnMilton_Esq453 reads

VERY simple Marikod, you believe Reid that someone told him, absent ANY evidence.

I DON'T believe Reid about an informer and I have already posted my reasoning therefore I say he lied.

Based on the links I have posted from credible sources I don't think old Harry is believable.

End of story!

to a child, or a pet:  "You should be proud of yourself,..."

Is that how you talked to your children. Is that how you talk to your dog!  ;)

First; as has been pointed out by Marikot, neither you or anyone else has proved Harry Reid lied. You wish to believe it, but you have not proved it.

Second; Romney's avoidance of being transparent with his finances is related to whether he paid his taxes, and with whether or not he paid fully, what was due, on his total income. So, regarding the content of Duane's message, there was no deflection.

Third; I was more commenting on the process of his post. In communications theory, a message is broken down into two components: content and process. Process looks at who, and why is this person communicating this message at this point in time, and in this place. Just because a subject is brought up in an interview doesn't mean it has any relevance in the present state of affairs. In this case it just seemed to me to be like a dog digging up an old bone. Just my most humble opinion.

Time to dial down your condescending tone, and not take yourself so seriously!  ;)

He slandered Romney and doesn't have the decency to apoligize.
I just wonder if this retirement has to with all his shady deals.
And how did he REALLY get that black eye?

nuguy46335 reads

to see Dims resort to outrageous lies. Character is something the Dim 'leaders' appear not to have.

So Pellosi is on record saying Harry spoke the truth when he said "People tell me Romney has not paid taxes"....she made no comment as to whether Romney actually paid no taxes.....so why do I think Pellosi and Reid cut a deal where she got someone to tell him Romney paid no taxes, so he could then say......

CltLuvr382 reads

When Obama was running for prez he said "the country was ready to embrace a black presidential candidate, especially one such as Obama—to whom he referred as being "light-skinned" and "with no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one".  

Typical closet racsist who would never associate with a black person.

followme392 reads

cum stain on the bed sheet of life.

 
2016 = GOP All The Way

Timbow414 reads

Posted By: DUANE
So the smug Harry Reid seems to think it was fine that he took to the Senate floor and lied about Romney s taxes.  Of course he was lacking the guts or conviction to say it elsewhere where he could be sued for libel.  I guess that is what politics has evolved to.
-- Modified on 4/1/2015 8:08:55 AM

...privileged punk ass any day of the week.  Reid had a hardscrabble life growing up and he was a boxer.  Romney has been a pussy his entire life as are his five "For God and Country" avoiding sons.

As a matter of fact, Reid could still kick your ass too, Tim.  But you already knew that, didn't you?

The Saxby attack ad showed Democrat Max Cleland, a Vietnam veteran and triple amputee, juxtaposed on to a picture of Osama Bin Laden. What's even worse the ad worked and Saxby Chambliss won Cleland's seat. There is a special place in hell for this dude!

Here is what John McCain said about the attack advertisement against Max Cleland: "it's worse than disgraceful, it's reprehensible." Republican senator Chuck Hagel said that the advertisements were "beyond offensive to me.

 
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/11/23/1163626/-GA-Sen-Don-t-Applaud-Saxby-Chambliss-R
 

Posted By: DUANE
So the smug Harry Reid seems to think it was fine that he took to the Senate floor and lied about Romney s taxes.  Of course he was lacking the guts or conviction to say it elsewhere where he could be sued for libel.  I guess that is what politics has evolved to.
-- Modified on 4/1/2015 5:51:40 PM

When Republicans lie, their lies come across as belive this lie or don't. This is our message regardless of what you believe.

When Democrats lie, their lies come across as believe this lie because we are telling the truth. You have to believe me because our message is the truth, we never lie.

with what Bush and Turd Blossom (Karl Rove) did to McCain in South Carolina in 2000.  ;)

-- Modified on 4/1/2015 3:44:17 PM

JohnMilton_Esq396 reads

some of you simply bring up bad acts of others.  Its called misdirection and it completely cuts of any rational discussion about the topic at hand in this thread which was Harry Reid's behavior and his statements as the elected leader of the US Senate made in the well of the Senate.

Whatever, knock yourselves out......

And for the record, I believe that what Chambliss did to Max Cleland was wrong, but it has not a fucking thing to do with the discussion of Harry Reid.  It's old news.  The Reid story is new again because old Harry has been bragging about it this week.

I simply provided one particularly nasty example of the political games played by Republicans

JohnMilton_Esq401 reads

However, when bad acts are brought up for discussion as in this thread about Harry Reid and instead of discussing the topic at hand, fingers are pointed and the message is your side is bad too,
then it simply becomes name calling.  If that's what you want, ok, but what's the point then?  Who can hurl the worst insult or link to the most egregious behavior?  Seems pointless to me.

And HONDA, I agreed with you that the Cleland attacks by Repubs were wrong.

-- Modified on 4/1/2015 7:47:19 PM

nuguy46440 reads

that Romney was a decent American. He knew Romney gave more to charity than he, Pelosi, Biden and Obama combined. He knew That Romney gave a higher percentage of his income than all 4 of them combined. And he knew Biden didn't even give $500. He's slick and epitomizes everything wrong with today's politics. Good riddance. Unfortunately about 20 years too late. The mantra is to do what's best for you and your party..to hell what it does to the country. Bring back the "ask not what your country can do for you.....ask what you can do for your country".

So all those dollars you claim Romney gives to charity don't amount to a hill of beans with thoughts like that IMHO.

-- Modified on 4/2/2015 3:52:27 PM

-- Modified on 4/2/2015 4:26:51 PM

nuguy46365 reads

you like the lies he continues to put out? a guy who cares nothing about others? the real supporter for the 1% is your King. They and he have been going to the bank with our money and putting into their account.

Register Now!