Abrahamic Religions have created a world, we no longer can live in peacefully.
Argue and try to justify by burying all facts on killing; may that be in Russia, China, Cambodia, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, England, France, US or anywhere else on this planet. Keep arguingThe Old Testament - aka the Pentateuch, aka the Torah. The most holy document in Judaism.
** In the Torah, we are taught many things of great social and personal value. We are also taught how to kill the babies of the Amalaki (the Malachites), the sworn enemies of the Jews.
The New Testament - aka The Christian Scriptures, the most holy document in Christianity.
** I don't think anyone who reads this forum is ignorant of the millions killed in the name of Christ during the Crusades, the Inquisition, and even as recently as last year.
The Quran - the central religious text of Islam, the most holy document to Muslims.
** Besides the Quran proclaiming Jews to be the offspring of pigs and apes, and offering explicit instructions for how to kill the Jew, there are of course the innumerable references to killing the infidel, and other joyous activities to be done in the name of Allah.
What do we see in common? All three tomes offer great wisdom and lessons of life, but all three also teach violence and hate in the name of God/Jesus/Allah. Killing in the name of God is not the symptom, it is the after effect of Religion and religious intolerance.
As long as the foolish Western mindset continues to minimize or dismiss the fact they are dealing with Zealots, the reign of Islamic terrorism will rise and grow unabated.
The time for hand-wringing is over. appeasement will never work, and only projects weakness.
And weakness is something EVERY terrorist will exploit as fast as you can say Allah-hu Ahkbar.
Je Suis Charlie. Never Again.
People kill people everyday, with out a single religious thought going through their mind.
The only practical/impractical solution is to ban religion, along with ending the separation of church and state. Are you willing to give up your freedom to appease the Islamists?
** In the Torah, we are taught many things of great social and personal value. We are also taught how to kill the babies of the Amalaki (the Malachites), the sworn enemies of the Jews.
The New Testament - aka The Christian Scriptures, the most holy document in Christianity.
** I don't think anyone who reads this forum is ignorant of the millions killed in the name of Christ during the Crusades, the Inquisition, and even as recently as last year.
The Quran - the central religious text of Islam, the most holy document to Muslims.
** Besides the Quran proclaiming Jews to be the offspring of pigs and apes, and offering explicit instructions for how to kill the Jew, there are of course the innumerable references to killing the infidel, and other joyous activities to be done in the name of Allah.
What do we see in common? All three tomes offer great wisdom and lessons of life, but all three also teach violence and hate in the name of God/Jesus/Allah. Killing in the name of God is not the symptom, it is the after effect of Religion and religious intolerance.
As long as the foolish Western mindset continues to minimize or dismiss the fact they are dealing with Zealots, the reign of Islamic terrorism will rise and grow unabated.
The time for hand-wringing is over. appeasement will never work, and only projects weakness.
And weakness is something EVERY terrorist will exploit as fast as you can say Allah-hu Ahkbar.
Je Suis Charlie. Never Again.
to this atheist the message should be broader than simply a rejection of religious zealotry (though I do agree with that). The message is simply that all religions, especially in this day and age, are primitive fairy tales that can be very destructive.
I'm well aware these fantasies give some people comfort and they are welcome to them, so long as they don't try to make me live according to their rules.
As to "Never Again," sadly this will continue to happen over and over again.
And now, a word from our favorite prophet.
-- Modified on 1/8/2015 7:58:37 PM
That sounds like the Mormons in Utah! They marry teenagers and toddlers.
I'm certainly not a Mormon fan, but your suggestion makes you a Moron.
A Mormon head was prosecuted for marrying teenagers and underage girls, you MORON. Read the NBC news and go flush your meathead in a T Bowl. Take your partner GAG with you.
You want more MORMON stories, I have plenty for you.
You two need a scan of your heads by a neurologist to check what is inside!
You try to make your argument re Mormons based on a couple of random reports about fundamentalists and outcasts who do not represent the mainstream religion itself (which, by the way is looney as hell but does NOT condone the acts to which you refer). So your clownish attempt to rebut is a classic red herring.
Then you indulge in weak name-calling that, to virtually all posters here is laughable.
You are just sad and pathetic. And old.
PS: Why is it you refuse to report on your "trip" to Las Vegas? Or was that another fantasy of yours?
It is random because hundreds cases are not reported. How about that other post about Christianity evolving by another one of your brain dead morons? What those handsome servants of God in their flowing long robes not getting enough altar kids in to the backroom
How was your NYE in St Cloud Florida, or are you still sticking to the story that you were banging four hotties NYE? (oh yeah, and posting right here at the very same time. those time stamps are a bitch)
and if you still have the energy after this VERY difficult question about your whereabouts just a few days ago, where is P411 based?
I am busy watching what is going on in the back rooms and study in Churches.
So now you claim to know about all those hundreds of unreported cases? How? Are you really a Mormon pederast? Or just a fool who can't even debate rationally?
Your last sentence is almost incomprehensible, so congratulations on your language skills. English is your second language, right? Even so, you really should be better at it at your advanced age. Your language skills are as weak as the rest of your game.
Have you ever noticed his posts sound like he has the internet version of Tourettes whenever he gets rattled? Just like his countryman and fellow retard Fungy
Debate rationally with a bunch of bloakes is not my specialty. My mother tongue happens to be English.
What took you so long to see the light in regards to religion?
and as much as I HATE to agree with Inicky, he is absolutely right when he says that "Never again" is simply wishful thinking and that it WILL happen over and over again until the non muslim people finally mean it when they said it, and actually go down the hard road it will take to put an end to it.
You can't deal with fanatics of any kind, especially religious zealots unafraid of death. All you can do is speed up their journey to paradise and try to prevent them from taking too many with them on their journey.
You mean like the MORMONS who marry underage girls?
There were no deaths when a crucifix was dipped in urine or a portrait of Mary was covered in horse dung. There was outrage but it was all verbal not physical.
Now compare that to radical Islams response to books and cartoons. It's night and day different.
Let's not lump all religions together and try to state or imply some kind of moral equivalency. There isn't one.
And don't leave out atheism, for that is a belief system that has lead to tens, if not hundreds of millions of murders.
That said, you are correct about moral equivalency. But let's also not forget that the wonderfully evolved Catholic church turned a blind eye while many of its priests sexually molested children. I'm not sure that's much different from Mohammad marrying a 6-year-old.
It's all primitive and pathetic.
I am not down playing it, but pointing out the discussion was about Christianity the world over, not a very small slice of American Catholicism. Your overall point is correct that the church has not fully evolved but it is the hair to Islams turtle.
As for atheists murders, China and the old Soviet Union don't count? Lol. Now maybe they have evolved as well, but let's not down play those two atheist run murderous regimes.
As for atheists murders, China and the old Soviet Union don't count? Lol. Now maybe they have evolved as well, but let's not down play those two atheist run murderous regimes.
I think it's you that needs a history lesson if you buy that. Lol
the intent was always there, the 20th century just provided a larger population and more efficient methods to carry it out
Actually it started when Dubiya invaded Iraq and started killing its people!
Much of it actually started with the first crusade in the late 11th century. Besides that in the early 50's when Israel was created. You can't really think this jahad started with George W. sending troops to Iraq do you?? If so it just proves you don't have any clue about the history of the Middle East or Islam.
Besides weren't you heading to Aus??
it started when Homo sapiens killed off homo everyone else and then started on themselves. Religion is just a convenient justification.
His point is like comparing a pogrom to the holocaust.
First, I agree with you that the millions of murders by the Soviets and Maoist Chinese count as murders by atheists, as do the Cambodian killing fields. But as bad as that all is, it still doesn't come close to the killings in the name of god. For example, the extermination of the Maya and Inca peoples by the Spanish. And the extermination of the Native American population of North America, justified in the name of god.
Also, the institutional pederasty by the Catholic Church was not simply in the US and was indeed international. You can google it. But the prior Pope was excoriated for covering up sex abuse scandals in Europe when he ran the Curia. Jack, just because you don't know about it does not mean it didn't happen.
You surprisingly asked where I got tens or hundreds of millions from in relation to atheists and I told you. You have now altered it to who kills more, atheists or Christians.
If you have accurate numbers of the murders of each philosophy, i am willing to listen. I think you may be hard pressed to reach the 100 million mark by atheists but this is self admittedly a field I am not all that familiar with and I am sure people have argued these points with out much success of convincing the other side but I do remain open minded on the subject but once something delves into "who killed more" thats kinda like saying "yeah my side is bad, but your side is worse" lol
Now for your Native American example, I would argue that many of the "murders" you mention would be described as self defense or retaliation so I am questioning your assertion that it was done for mainly for religious reasons, although I am sure you are correct to an extent, I am more arguing degree at this point.
With regards to the priest scandal, I did make it a point to say "mainly" a U.S. Problem, not solely a U.S. one. I never said it didn't happen in Europe Nick. I was well aware that it did.
Also, if you want to go down that road, many other religions have had sex abuse issues, but I will certainly concede that none of them were to the degree or shear numbers as seen in the Catholic Church. Again, I am not defending the church. My entire point was that Christianity has evolved, not to the degree you or I would wish, but it has changed greatly over the centuries where I don't believe Islam has or if it has,it is virtually imperceptible.
Hopefully you will post more here as it is good to have another reasoned voice to debate with. So if you, or anyone else has sourced info on number of murders per philosophy/religion by a reasonable/moderate source, I would actually be interested in seeing them
Then it would also seem appropriate to have a tally of all the good things accomplished and people saved.
For me, as far as philosophies are concerned, the bottom line is that theist or atheist, neither has cornered the market on evil. But in virtually every major case I can think of, it wasn't the philosophy that did the evil deeds, it was people. In many all of those instances (the major ones certainly) it was people that that took control of the religion, primarily for political reasons, some for personal ones that ended up distorting the philosophy.
From a score keeping standpoint. adding up numbers are meaningless without also including time duration and even population density
In the early 1990's my 'then' wife introduced me to a work colleague(American) who had married a Middle Eastern(Muslim) woman. And they had an absolutely beautiful 5 year old daughter. The woman and daughter were two of nicest, kindest, politest, most soft spoken, peaceful/peace loving, humane people I've ever met. Our two families socialized on several occasions.
I often think of this loving, benign, peaceful family and how they might be fairing in this now justifiably Islamaphobic, post 911 world.
-- Modified on 1/9/2015 7:35:11 AM
Nick and I were so caught up in the atrocity side of the ledger we didn't mention how good is done by say, Catholic Charities and other Christian groups.
Whenever there is a hurricane, earthquake, etc anywhere in the world, that organization mobilizes only second to world govts, and the amount of good they do with the poor is astounding. The side benefit of that is that it is, for the most part, all private money keeping tax payers out of the loop.
Now to be fair, atheist groups are much smaller and can do less good on account of those smaller numbers but I am not aware of those groups working towards the common good in terms of charity work. Not saying they don't, just unaware as to what they do or don't do.
Great post Ed.
While it's indisputable religious-affilated groups to some great relief work, it's also indisputable that most of it is done by non-religious groups like the Red Cross, Americares, Doctors Without Borders, etc., etc.
Now give me the list of atheist groups that perform those services?
Show me where I said atheist groups provide relief services? I don't doubt some atheists work for relief groups, as do some religious people. Now tell me how any of this is germane? It's indisputable that most relief work is done by non-denominational groups.
Sheesh! When did you become such a bible thumper?
Look, you're welcome to your religious views, but you're trying to parse way too much of the argument over whether religions are more bloodthirsty than secular murderers. What's the point? They are all despicable. How do you weigh which one is worse. They are both horrendous.
I didn't put words in your mouth. I simply asked you a question. Fk dude. Lol.
The point was based on Ed OP. I think religious do more good than atheists as we decided to shlelve the who kills more stuff. I also said I didn't know this to be a fact, it was a hunch.
I simply was asking what atheists do like Carholic Services was doing. I wasn't accusing. I was asking you to educate me as I am not knowledgeable of the atheist side of the coin.
Sheez...lol
Your last one was almost incoherent. Are you drunk, Jack? That's not a bad thing. Unless you want to communicate. Let me be clear, I don't give a fuck who does more good. Religions are organized. Atheists are not. My point is, the people who do the most good are not religious or atheist. They simply don't inject that into what they do.
Sheez
I wasn't trying to jump into the fray of becoming one of the “score keepers”, but I saw the evaluation of religion here as being quite one sided even though I am not a religious person. I came to dislike most religious institutions from a personal perspective. I share this attitude with many atheists. But if we side step the whole “does God exist question” we can get down to our agreements. What irks me about religious institutions (at least the denominational ones) is that they are created by and spoiled by people. I guess I need to start my own church, but as soon as we had a second member I’d probably be compelled to quit.
At the risk of alienating most atheists, I tend to make a generalization that for the most part, atheists and atheists groups rely upon government agencies (federal, state and local) to provide the fundamental services they see as required to keep one’s moral compass calibrated. I know there are atheists that are philanthropic and charitable but I don’t think their participation rates are as high as religious people. It becomes a sort of “I gave at the office” attitude (where the office is taxes). There are also many charitable organizations of all sizes that maintain a non-religious focus but many are run by religious people so analysis there can get quite fuzzy. A few like the Red Cross either occasionally accept governmental donations or contract with the government to provide certain services
Are you keeping a tally of how many thousands Dubiya killed in Iraq
Do these count on the Muslim side? Sadam was responsible for the rape, torture and murder of millions. GW is a poor comparison. Also there were at least 12 other nations that sent troups during the fighting and close to 25 there after. Many Muslim nations also sent troups. Do they count?
Iraq Body Count (2003 – 14 December 2011): 103,160–113,728
Iraq wasn't a religious war no matter what you want to believe. In fact many Iraqis died fighting for freedom between 2004-2011. Many Muslim Iraqis. If you want to be blind and stick your head in the sand at least keep your mouth shut.
And it seems we still disagree. Especially in South and Central America the conquests were done in the name of god. Also, many victims were simply worked to death in mines. The Belgians in the 19th century did the same thing to natives in the Congo and it's called genocide. It just wasn't done in the name of god
Abrahamic Religions have created a world, we no longer can live in peacefully.
Argue and try to justify by burying all facts on killing; may that be in Russia, China, Cambodia, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, England, France, US or anywhere else on this planet.
Keep arguing
That caused all those peace loving Shinto and Buddhist people in Japan to attempt to conquer half the world during the 20th Century.
Christianity has evolved? Is that why they bomb Abortion clinics?
Put'em all to the sword? Been tried before. "Final Solution".
promote rejection of religion and its self proclaimed leaders.
Why do human being need religion anyway
Religion isn't a bad thing Fungy, its the bastardization of religion that is the problem.
Like forcing anti abortion and anti birth control by religious bigots a.k.a Republican Party?
Religion can be bad and religion can be good. But without doubt, religion is an antiquated hold-over from antiquity when men feared and mis-understood the world around them and had to invent a fairy tale to explain it and make them feel more secure. That's no longer needed but many people hold onto the myth. I think we are in the midst of a long transition period, at the end of which organized religion will have been thrown into the proverbial "dust bin of history."
As Charlie used to say, "There is no god."
It seems reasonable people in the Muslim world actually have been discussing the roots of Islamic extremism.
Maybe that's a start. Moderates HAVE to take their religion back.
Sure, it will take time and standing up to killers wont be easy but...the fallout is going to come down on the moderates if they DONT do something.
The West bombing them morning noon and night is limited in fixing the problem and only works for brief periods. Any systemic change MUST come from within Islam.
Good read.
The moderate Muslims will always lose to the extremist/radical ones, because they are moderate. The extremists are the ones who promote death. This includes the moderate Muslims, who are not promoting death to the infidels. See what a circle jerk that is?
Sure, it will take time and standing up to killers wont be easy but...the fallout is going to come down on the moderates if they DONT do something.
The West bombing them morning noon and night is limited in fixing the problem and only works for brief periods. Any systemic change MUST come from within Islam.
Good read.
BTW, I don't believe Islam itself is inherently evil. Yes, the Quran has more calls to violence than the Bible (which do have their share at the OP pointed out). But the religion has been hijacked by extremists and can only be saved by the more moderate believers.
Are they to convert to Christianity?
This entire notion that a moderate group of (who ever) can over come the extremist group of
(who ever) does not comply with the rational thought process.
Do you fail to realize when makes an extremist an extremist?
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/extremist
When the moderates take aim at the extremists, which would be the only way to confront an extremists. They become the extremists. Which is fine for us here in the USA, because it is the American way.
However, I don't think that the moderates are going to say much until they feel free to do so. Just like the picnickers at the park don't confront the motorcycle gang that just pulled up. Nor do the neighbors say so much as a peep against the local gang. So, why do we expect the moderate Muslims to be any braver?
Of the three only one had this murderous streak.
there was public are where the cross was submerged in urine and no one was killed. Another work had the Virgin Mary was covered in cow feces and no was murdered.
The Book of Mormon is still running after a couple years. No security, no murder, nothing. Mitt Romney and his Magic Underwear didn't go "peep"
There is violence in the Old Testament and the death penalty is mentioned. But in 3,000 years it has never been enforced. How many "babies of the Amalaki (the Malachites), the sworn enemies of the Jews" have Jews murdered anywhere in the last 1000 years