Since your last question demonstrates how your fundamental assertion is incorrect I'll address it.
-- Modified on 11/13/2014 7:09:45 PM
states it is built on a "foundation of lies."
I have to start giving liberals credit. There still are some decent and honest ones willing to put country over party.
My guess is Mari will say a high school friend of his went to summer camp with Fournier and that he was a crack pot back then. lol.
Seriously though, the roof is caving in on this buffoon of a president and his incredibly corrupt regime
Did i forget to mention halliburton?
No matter.
More breaking news...Yet ANOTHER video of this db has surfaced of him bragging they got one passed the American people.
Of course this came AFTER he told PMSNBC yesterday he was "speaking off the cuff" and misspoke.
What are the odds of someone "misspeaking" TWICE, on two different dates at two different locales? lol.
Do you think Barry will give this guy the Rev Wright treatment? You know, claim to never leave his side then throw him under the bus a week later?
That space under that bus is getting awfully tight. I see Wright, Gruber, Barry's white grandma and Sebelius, Shinsecki, Bill Ayers, Van Jones, the constitution, etc. lol
Texas, Nebraska, and the other 23 largely Republican states are a bunch of liars?
You must be bc they all said the mandate was NOT A TAX.
And you are also saying that the judges of the 11th Circuit and the district court also lied bc they all said the mandate was NOT A TAX.
Damn, our government is full of liars, Jack. We need transparency.
“Appearing on an academic panel a year ago, this key Obamacare adviser argued that the law never would have passed if the administration had been honest about the fact that the so-called penalty for noncompliance with the mandate was actually a tax.”
By the way, who said the mandate WAS A TAX? You will be surprised to learn that it was – drum roll ….THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION. Although President Obama reportedly disagreed with this characterization, the government argued from Day One in the litigation that, if the mandate could not be upheld as a penalty under the Commerce Clause, it was a tax.
Both the House and the Senate ACA bills also referred to the mandate as a tax in the early versions. In the debates about the bill, a number of Congressmen referred to the mandate as a tax. It was changed to a “shared responsibility payment” in the final draft.
Are you really going to claim Congress was “deceived” about this? But what are we going to do about those lying governors and atty generals who said the mandate was NOT A TAX?
Facts 1
Jack
Obama's boy already admitted they lied.
And did you catch what Howard Dean just said? "Obamacare was written by elitists that fundamently don't understand the American people." No shit Howard. Just wish he had the balls to say it when it mattered.
Juan Williams just admitted they lied.
Get over it. Put country first here, will ya? Argue you like the law but don't give me your bullshit they didn't lie about.
They HAD to lie Mari or it wouldn't have passed. And they are bragging about it!
Why is it all these liberals can rip this asshole yet you still feel the need to defend it? Look in the mirror time.
Decent liberals ..............3
Mari the shark jumper.....
you do not want to address them. I see you have zero comments about any of the factual points I made.
But I’ll still help you- If you want to show that that the ACA would not have passed if the Obama administration had characterized the mandate as a tax in the final draft of the law, it’s pretty easy to do – all you need to do is poll the Democrats who voted for the law and see how many will say that I “would not have voted for the ACA if the mandate was labeled a tax.”
If you get 11 senators and enough house members to tip the majority to admit this, then the statement made by your pundits is accurate at least as to cause and effect. Then we would address whether the change in the bill came from the Obama administration, or was done by Reid and Pelosi.
What did you say? Gruber has not done that? No one has done that? Then how can you say the characterization had any effect on the bill?
I know - you are not going to answer that.
We don’t even get to the part about lying bc no one knows whether the tax characterization would have changed the vote of enough ( if any) congressmen. The loose cannon Gruber ( who now admits his comments were off the cuff and i nappropriate) does not know this; Fornier does not know this, and the other pundits who “admitted” they lied, don’t know it.
Finally, even Gruber’s belief that the CBO scoring the mandate as a tax would be fatal doesn’t make much sense – the ACA imposes 18 new taxes/tax increases. Why would 19 be a deal breaker?
You are not going to answer that one either, are you?
Use your intellect Jack- don’t just listen to the pundits.
Facts 2
Jack
You have never looked like a bigger fool than you do right now defending this. Christ even Mika Bryzinksi ripped Obama today for deceptive salesmanship but I am sure she is one of MY pundits now too, right?
A law was passed under fraudulent circumstances that even decent iberals have now acknowledged and you could care less.
I am just amazed you didn't bring up pouring water on Al Queda's head, as that is your usual justification for all of Obamas malfeasance.
You can remove your lips from Barry's ass anytime now. Unless, of course, they are Krazy Glued on there.
If you get 11 senators and enough house members to tip the majority to admit this, then the statement made by your pundits is accurate at least as to cause and effect. Then we would address whether the change in the bill came from the Obama administration, or was done by Reid and Pelosi.
Personally I think the vast majority of them (Democrats) knew the truth, hell, I knew the truth and was saying so at the time. The problem of course is the majority of their constituents were duped. The Press knew the truth but of course their silence is what enabled the ignorance of Democrat constituents to flourish. Ignorant constituents equals support to vote for the lies. Educated constituents equals enough pressure on at least 11 Senators or enough House members to fail the bill.
This is about lies by Obama and his administration and the Democrat leaders along with a lack of conscience (or excess of fear) in the rest of the Democrat Congress.
BTW, the Press still hasn't come clean like Gruber. I have yet to see this story covered by CBS, ABC or NBC nightly news. Certain liberals on FOX have been unable to ignore the issue and acknowledged the truth,
Don Lemon had on Van Jones and Marc Lamont Hill. Jones said what Gruber said was "horrible" and Hill called it "problematic". Lemon clearly thought Grubers comments were way out of line.
I haven't seen ANY liberals anywhere defend it, except Mari.
As for Gruber himself, after appearing on OReilly and Megyns show in the past, he turned them both down and he chose to do just two interviews:
MSNBC 's Ronan Farrow and a local station in Boston. He stated that is all the media he will be doing.
Gee, I wonder why.
Still crickets from the White House. Maybe Barry is playing some night time golf?
I haven't seen ANY liberals anywhere defend it, except Mari.
As for Gruber himself, after appearing on OReilly and Megyns show in the past, he turned them both down and he chose to do just two interviews:
MSNBC 's Ronan Farrow and a local station in Boston. He stated that is all the media he will be doing.
Gee, I wonder why.
Still crickets from the White House. Maybe Barry is playing some night time golf?
“Let's assume that all Democrats in the House and Senate were totally aware of the "truth". There's no reason to say with certainty or even probability that they would have voted differently. The pressure they felt to vote one way or the other came from 3 places, their conscience, their constituents and the Democrat machine bosses (i.e Obama, Pelosi, Reid, et al.).”
All true and that is why Gruber’s assertion that the labeling of the mandate made a difference is just his speculation. The only way you can know for sure is to poll the congressmen who voted for the bill and ask them.
“Personally I think the vast majority of them (Democrats) knew the truth, hell, I knew the truth and was saying so at the time.”
Thank you- exactly my point to Jack which the poor fellow can’t seem to understand. Congress was not deceived in the slightest. Again both the House and Senate bills referred to the mandate as a tax. They had to know that when the labeling was changed in the final bill that this was done for political purposes – so opponents would not say they were raising taxes.
“The problem of course is the majority of their constituents were duped.”
This is where you lost me. How were the constituents "duped" by the characterization of the mandate? We are not talking about “you can keep your doctor” – no one disputes that this was a major misrepresentation since Mr. Obama did not add the many qualifications to this assertion.
I personally don’t remember any discussion about the true nature of the mandate before the bill was passed. But whether the mandate is a tax or a penalty would make no difference to the average constituent. All they are concerned about is having to pay it. To the sophisticated constituent, it is actually advantageous to treat the payment as a tax – why? If you have a tax credit you can set it off- no set off for a penalty.
So how were they duped? If the press had reported that the mandate was a tax, do you really think anyone would call their Congressman and say “don’t vote for the bill?”
Apparently you do, but I don’t see how you arrive that conclusion.
There are rumblings of holding a hearing on this and calling Gruber to testify. That should be interesting.
My prediction - he will backtrack and bring out the same points I made to Jack above
""I personally don’t remember any discussion about the true nature of the mandate before the bill was passed. But whether the mandate is a tax or a penalty would make no difference to the average constituent""
Then why was the Great Deciever so adamant, to the point of sarcasm and snark, in the nationally televised interview with George Clintonopolos?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHM0Yq_Wxj0
What a masterful liar.
Or do you forget that part? Stephanopoulos GRILLED him on this point. He said unequivocally it wasn't a tax. That was a lie and that is, in part how they duped the American public. He COULDNT say it wasn't a tax because of his pledge not to tax the middle class.
Yes, Mari, Its the EXACT same as keep your doctor, plan, savings $2500 per family etc.
They poll test these things Mari. Van Jones said this last night. He said 80% of the legislation was political. Not me saying it, not Ed, but a hard core lefty who worked in the White House so not some "pundit" either.
They poll tested whether it was a tax and how that would play, if keeping your doctor would be an issue, etc and guess what? They didn't poll well so the political arm of the WH and Obama lied about it.
It wasn't Grubers "speculation" at all. He was an insider and had access to the political push back the WH knew form their poll testing. He knew fact certain there where points he could and could not cross when creating the legislation.
Why do you think liberals are NOT defending this?
Think outside the box and "what is written" one time, will ya
as I pointed out to you in the very first post. He is on record as saying he disagrees with Justice Roberts and agrees with the judges of the Eleventh Circuit who all said the mandate was NOT A TAX.
Where is the lie? This is a question of constitutional interpretation, not the existence or non existence of an existing fact. The Justice Dept said it could be upheld as a tax as soon as the litigation started. So even within the admin there were differences of opinion.
So for you to say that Mr. Obama “lied” about whether the mandate is a tax is absolutely ridiculous. You are starting to sound like those guys who say Bush “lied” about the existence of WMD, when the true facts show just that he got it wrong.
But of course you are straying from the speculation of Gruber and topic of my posts – did the characterization of the mandate as a tax or penalty play any role in the votes to enact the bill? Gruber does not know, the pundits do not know, and you do do not know. Hence Gruber’s statement that the law would not have passed if the CBO had scored the mandate as a tax is just rank speculation.
And it is NOT like the keep your own doctor misrepresentation – that one mattered to people- the mandate characterization did not.
As to your final point, I have never heard of any “polling” of the mandate characterization. I seriously doubt that is true but please show me otherwise if you can. But this makes no sense - they were concerned with getting votes from Congress – not the opinion of a focus group
You have never heard of INTERNAL polling? You don't realize that virtually EVERY piece of legislation, and certainly one of THIS magnitude, gets poll tested to death?
Christ, Clinton poll tested where Americans thought he should go on vacation. lol Look that one up if you don't believe me.
I find it hard to believe you didn't know this. Van Jones pointed this out on CNN in the last 24 hours but anyone that follows politics to any real degree already knew this.
Look, you cant even call the "you keep your doctor" bullshit a "lie". You call it a "misrepresentation." LOL. It doesn't matter that a non-partisan, Pulitzer prize winning organization called it not JUST a lie, but LIE OF THE YEAR.
So its no wonder you don't think any of this is a lie.
Obama was telling people this was NOT a tax, at the same time his attornerys were telling the court it was! To you that's not a lie, to most Americans, it is. And if not a lie will you settle on deliberate "misrepresentation" then?
And it makes TOTAL sense. The easiest way to get "Yay" votes in congress is to have it popular with their constituents. Focus groups/internal/external polling gives politicians cover and makes them feel more confident to vote a bill up or down. Honestly, do I need to explain this to you to?
I am getting to the point where I just think you are fking with all of us. ND pointed out that he wasn't sure you REALLY believe this and now, neither am I.
Mari, serious libs now on record saying the law was passed on lies (their word, not just mine) These are people who LOVED Obama and Obamacare.
So why would they say that, if it wasn't true??????????
I take it your answer is “no” you can’t show that anyone “polled” the issue of whether the mandate was a tax or a penalty. I didn’t see Van Jones but I suspect you misunderstood what he said –some aspects of ACA may have been poll tested but not the mandate characterization. And you are incorrect – every piece of legislation is not “poll tested” to death. Only a very, very small fraction of the statutes in the United States Code are poll tested.
The tax/penalty distinction only became important when the lawsuit was filed and the plaintiffs claimed Congress had no power to enact the mandate. The Justice Dept then promptly said if the mandate could not be supported under the Commerce Clause, it could be supported as a tax. The President disagrees - but that is what lawyers do in litigation – make all possible arguments. So no, that does not mean the President lied.
Why he was so wrong about the “you can keep your own doctor” representation is a mystery to me. But you can’t show that he knew that was incorrect when he said it, can you? And of course, it is literally true – the misrepresentation comes because he did not qualify his statement and list the many situations where you could not keep your doctor.
Why he was wrong about the mandate being a tax, however, is easy to understand. Roberts and the Sup Ct majority are the only judges to take this position. All of these others agreed with Mr. Obama.
But the key fact you can't overcome is this- not a single Democrat has said he would have voted differently if the law said the mandate was a tax. Until we get enough of them saying this, Gruber is simply speculating
Team Obimbo was denying it was a tax so they could sell it.
Can you point to ANY Obama admin officials publicly stating it was a tax BEFORE it was voted on?????
who said the mandate WAS NOT a tax before it was voted upon?
When Mr. Obama gave his speech on Obamacare to Congress – the famous speech where the SC rep yelled “lie” – he did not characterize the nature of the mandate.
So what support can you offer for your claim that they denied the mandate was a tax so they could sell it? If they used that to “sell the bill” it is news to me.
As to Congress, however, all three predecessor bills called the mandate a tax as did many Congressmen in debating the bill. In the final Senate bill, they just changed the labeling from “tax” to “shared responsibility payment" and "penalty":
Prior to the passage of the Act, earlier bills in both houses
of Congress proposed an individual mandate accompanied by a
"tax," …Thus, for example, Section 401 of the "America's Affordable Choices Act of 2009," H.R. 3200, 111th Cong. (2009), which was introduced in the House of Representatives on July 14, 2009, provided that "there is
hereby imposed a tax" on "any individual who does not meet the
requirements of [maintaining minimum health insurance coverage]
at any time during the taxable year." A later version of the
House bill, the "Affordable Health Care for America Act," H.R.
3962, 111th Cong. § 501 (2009), passed the House of
Representatives on November 7, 2009, and similarly referred to
the individual mandate's enforcement mechanism as a "tax." On
the Senate side, the "America's Healthy Future Act," a
precursor to the Act, also used the term "tax." See S.
1796, 111th Cong. § 1301 (2009) ("If an applicable
individual fails to [maintain minimum health insurance
coverage] there is hereby imposed a tax. . . .").
To say, that Congress or the CBO was “deceived” by the change in labeling is a little ridiculous. At a minimum they knew there was a good chance that a court would treat the mandate as a tax which eventually happened. To say that the American public was “deceived” is equally ridiculous bc they did not care.
Based on what we know now, this was simply not an issue that bore on whether the ACA would be passed or not.
Can you point to ANY Obama admin officials publicly stating it was a tax BEFORE it was voted on?????
Barack Milhouse Obama!!!!!!!!!!!!
How's that for a name?? I know it's only one but geeeez, its a big one, dontacha think???
You really outta just drop this silly line of denial and go watch the Fin's Bill's game. No one would call you silly for that...
""""The president says a health care mandate is not a tax in a Sept. 2009 'This Week' interview with George Stephanopoulos"""".
"""ALL ACTIONS:
9/17/2009:
Referred to the House Committee on Ways and Means.
10/7/2009 2:35pm:
Mr. Blumenauer moved to suspend the rules and pass the bill.""""
The Aca was enacted. Given that all the bills in the fall of 2009 said it was tax, and the final ACA gad not been drafted yet, very strange that he would say that.
So you are certainly correct about this one.
How's that for a name?? I know it's only one but geeeez, its a big one, dontacha think???
You really outta just drop this silly line of denial and go watch the Fin's Bill's game. No one would call you silly for that...
""""The president says a health care mandate is not a tax in a Sept. 2009 'This Week' interview with George Stephanopoulos"""".
"""ALL ACTIONS:
9/17/2009:
Referred to the House Committee on Ways and Means.
10/7/2009 2:35pm:
Mr. Blumenauer moved to suspend the rules and pass the bill.""""
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:HR03590:@@@S
"No, no one is lying about Obamacare!"
"No one is actually "hurt" by Obamacare!"
"They are all just "pundits" saying the Americans have taken over the airport!!!!"
Lol
Since your last question demonstrates how your fundamental assertion is incorrect I'll address it.
Maybe I'm not understanding what poll question you would now put before the Democrats in Congress, but the correct question is NOT whether they properly knew it was or wasn't a tax. The correct question is, what would they have done if a large number of constituents had lobbied them to vote no. A difficult hypothetical to poll for sure but if the lobbying was strong enough then I'm sure enough members, particularly in unsafe seats, would have defected.
The other aspect you overlook, probably due to some strict ethos you're following regarding the tax lie versus all the other lies, is that if the tax "issue" had not been held close to the vest by the media then the other lies would have also been exposed. In short, this question of voting cannot be answered in a vacuum containing just the tax issue. Gruber's comments also referenced their (Obama's) dependence on the stupidity of the people. Ignorance is probably a more accurate characterization, which would have been correctable via an honest media.
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“The short answer is, "Yes, of course". How can I prove it to you? I'm sure I can't.”
I can’t “prove” the converse either. But I can show you that logically I am right.
Your “speculation” that this would make a difference is not logical bc, as I have pointed out with actual quotations in several other posts, the three predecessors of the ACA - two house bills and one senate bill - EXPRESSLY labeled the mandate as a tax and the mandate was described as a tax in floor debates.
So the tax labeling was not something hidden from the public – it was a matter of public record. And, as far we know, NO ONE – not the average voter but more importantly not the public interest groups who were tracking the bill – urged their Congressman to reject the bill on this basis.
Why? Bc it just makes NO DIFFERENCE to the average citizen whether the mandate is a tax or a penalty. This is the point Jack runs away from, and with good reason.
So it is completely illogical for you to speculate that anyone would have called their Congressman and have urged him to vote against the ACA on this basis, when no one had done so with respect to the prior bills which expressly labeled the mandate as a tax.
As to your reframing of the question, I don’t necessarily disagree that would be a proper question but that is not the issue we are discussing – Gruber said the bill would not have been enacted if the CBO had scored the mandate as a tax, and that is just rank speculation, not the basis for “lie.”
We are discussing the lack of any cause and effect on this basis, not your hypothetical
Fact checkers would have deemed one of Obamas biggest campaign promises as broken. Citizens would have received the news that way and it would have angered them. You are confusing the affect on the situation, net, versus their perception of it.
Go read the link I attached to ND post from Krauthammer. He cites NBC report with four sources saying Obama new fact certain that people would lose their plan, and thus their doctor and hospital. He also cites the meeting with house R's when he admits people will lose their plans two years BEFORE he said in 2012 that they would not.
He lied Mari. About the doctor...and the plan...and the hospitals...and yes, the mandate is not a tax bullshit. His political team told him to say it was not a tax as his legal team was telling him it was.
I know you like to argue things to death but just ask yourself this: why would media elite liberals jump ship now on this issue who have been so loyal to him for 6 years? They can't defend it anymore. They acknowledge the obvious and for some reason you won't or can't. It won't kill you to admit it Mari. Lol.
So Joe Taxpayer would have been so FURIOUS if he knew the $95 mandate was a tax –Mr. Obama did promise no taxes of any kind on families making less than $250,000 - that he would have called his Congressman and told him – “don’t vote for Obamacare.” And enough taxpayers would have called that same congressmen that he would have decided to vote against Obamacare. And this same scenario would have played out with enough Congressmen to rob the Dems of the majority vote for ACA.
Whew – you have to speculate 3 times to even reach the final speculation that
scoring the mandate as a tax would have blocked enactment.
On the other hand, if Joe Taxpayer believed the $95 mandate was a “shared responsibility payment,” he’d say – “that’s cool Dude.” And the grass roots movement to block ACA would never have happened.
Yet the bills in Congress all said it was a tax until the final draft and no one complained. H’mm. And these same furious taxpayers were so furious about this broken promise that they re-elected Mr. Obama in preference to a candidate who aid “the first thing I’m going to do is repeal Obamcare. H'mm.
Give it up Jack- we can’t even call this “speculation.” We need a new word to describe the extenuated causal connections needed to support your theory.
Wait, I’ve got it! “Jackulation.” Yes, if you ‘jackulate,” it all comes together
Gruber said Obama told them in private the law wouldn't have passed either. So Obama is speculating now to I guess? Lol.
If Obama said people couldn't keep their doc, hospital, plan AND that there taxes were going up, there is zero chance the bill would have became law. Zero. Dems would have ran scared.
Once again, all these things were poll tested and they came back horribly bad. You can live in your fantasy world if you choose, with an elephant hanging over the edge of a cliff tied to a dandy lion, but I'll choose to believe every single honest liberal in the media right now saying it would not have passed and if you don't believe them, believe your hero Barry, unless you find him to be a liar like the rest of us. Lo
I can understand why you keep insisting that we are only discussing "the tax" issue and how bills were worded. You have yet to address any points regarding how the media's lack of legitimate participation affected how the average citizen would have reacted. The answer to your confusion (or stubbornness) is so much bigger than the minuscule fragments that seem to keep your attention.
""" By the way, who said the mandate WAS A TAX?
You will be surprised to learn that it was – drum roll ….THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION.
Although President Obama reportedly disagreed with this characterization, the government argued from Day One in the litigation that, if the mandate could not be upheld as a penalty under the Commerce Clause, it was a tax. """
Ohhhhhh, now i see!!!! "THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION and OBAMA are 2 different things!!!!!
DRUM ROLL.......bullshit.
Soon to be a classic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0ZUBMqMnWs
Pelosi in 2009: "Jonathan Gruber agrees with me."
*****************************************
Pelosi in 2014: "Who's Gruber?"
she sure looks haggardly, dont she?
You are another ladyboy who can't read and loves to make up things with no facts!
I love it when people assume things with nothing to go on.
When you are a repubscum that is your thing to do.
If you want to talk about your own personal dick problems keep it to yourself asshole.
So I know one thing that is not a problem for me. Lol
I named myself NeedleDick to mock insecure morons like you who are so insecure they name themselves things like BigMassiveCockBoy30.
Everyone knows it's a sign of insecurity
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