Many of the rah rah enlistees back in the Vietnam era who didn't wait to be drafted, but eagerly enlisted to go "kill the commies" turned out to be the biggest cowards once under fire. I am not saying that all of them did, or even that the percentage of cowardly enlistees was higher than the percentage of cowardly draftees, just that the fact that someone enlisted is hardly indicative of how they will perform when they actually come under fire.
Becoming a hero is rarely an intentional act. Heroes are more often made than born. Just a couple of things to think about while we are on the subject.
One final very last word on the subject. I freely admit that I was far from a hero myself, but I knew a few, and the last place you are going to find them is on this board tooting their own horn. Most of the time it will take a crowbar to pry two words out of them on the subject.
said on veterans day, but does it really mean a damn thing to the masses. I think not. For, if one really wishes to convey that they do, in fact, appreciate what these unsung heroes, the ones who have died and the ones who remain with us, with all their trials and tribulations that war has done to their mind bodies and spirits, we, the masses, the politicos, the opposing parties, the men women and children, would stand up and say, We are Americans!!!, and with that we all have different views on any given subject (for that is what our luminaries, (yes, to me they are "the luminaries), died for) not so that we could chisel at one another's throat and call each names that only tears the person doing the name calling done, and gives them no credibility, but also tears down our great country, and gives our great country, no credibility. We, the masses, should stand shoulder to shoulder to show the world and these great men and women that they did not die in vain.
With this, I salute all the men, women and families who today fight for the freedoms, we take for granted!!!!! You are the people who are the true heroes.
The American way is NOT to show a united front and fall in lock step with our leaders. what Americans have fought for since the beginning is the right to have a voice, and the right to air that voice no matter how unpopular, or in the case of many of our SPOTY candidates, no matter how stupid that POV might be.
BTW like most men my age, I served and I just don't think it is/was that big a deal. Not everybody who wears the uniform is a hero. I think the pendulum has swung too far from the my days when veterans were spit on, to today where even guys who work in the motor pool are given hero status. The truth is somewhere in between. It's the same with hookers, Hookers are not people to be looked down on, nor are they all "Goddesses", they are simply people, the same goes for members of our military, they are simply people just like the rest of us.
Also GaGambler is not totally wrong with some of his comments either.
We have the freedom to disagree and those who are fighting for our freedom.
I think everybody should say thank you to them!
but as I said earlier, I don't really consider my military service as all that special. Millions of men and women before me served, and countless millions more will serve in the future. IMHO it doesn't make any of us but a special few actual "heroes"
I would agree more if there was one. That wouldn't be special, if you were forced to serve.
But anyone who has served since the draft ended is extraordinarily brave, if not heroic.
Not a point I want to debate with anyone, but coming from someone who did not serve, I am just very grateful for the people who have.
Thank you Vets! Each and every one!
Some of them were actual heroes, even if they were the "reluctant type"
Being a hero isn't a matter of why you are there in the first place, it's how you conduct yourself once you get there.
-- Modified on 11/11/2014 1:11:05 PM
WHAT!
Am I reading this correctly? If a guy is drafted he is nothing special? Odd, I saw some brave acts executed by draftees. Was not Sgt. Alvin York a draftee?
Well, yes to GG. When I was in the Army, the ratio of "Trigger Pullers" to non-combat personnel was about 1 to 8, but of that 12 percent close to half were draftees.
More ridiculous is you statement : "But anyone who has served since the draft ended is extraordinarily brave, if not heroic. "
Let's see.... Some 20 yr old flippin burgers, thinks "hey maybe I should join the service and get some training, so I could get a decent job.... He is not too bright but manages to get into cooks and bakers school. He spends is hitch at Fort Lewis, Wa. doing... What?.....flipping burgers!
Yeah you're right. A real genuine hero he is...
227 AHB. "Airmobile Son....AIRMOBILE!"
But anyone who has served since the draft ended is extraordinarily brave, if not heroic.
Not a point I want to debate with anyone, but coming from someone who did not serve, I am just very grateful for the people who have.
Thank you Vets! Each and every one!
-- Modified on 11/11/2014 1:35:56 PM
My point was that people who volunteer are more courageous than draftees only in the act of volunteering. I wasn't commenting on their actions and service afterwards. Of course millions of draftees served honorably and acted heroically.
I am as pro military and cop as there is on this board but I can see how you guys took what I said the wrong way.
If you look at my last statement, I was thanking all vets, not just the ones who volunteered. Certainly didn't mean to offend anyone on Veterans Day as two members of my immediate family served, one by draft, one by choice.
And I really wasn't thinking of burger flippers who enlisted. I was thinking of combat /infantry primarily
Again, you don't know feces. A whole lot of guys volunteered and enlisted, into the Navy, Air Farce, and CC, specifically to avoid being drafted and becoming 11B. Also quite a few guys went RA, with the promise of attending. "special schools of your choice". Quite a few got lucky and were stationed in Germany, Korea or state side. Yeah really tough duty... All that cheap good beer, the strong dollar and YES all those fine sweet fraulines .
Me? I got drafted, in '68 while in my 2nd year at a major university. This was right after the TET Offensive. Yeah, I could have gotten a doctors note, saying I had asthma, allergies, a bad knees or some other false bullshit excuse, hey OJ, and every other pro athlete got deferments for some sort of knee or hip problem. Yeah, I could have wimped-out and went to Canada, but NO. I WENT. Because of my sense of duty!!
Stop talking out of your arse, and get the facts..
So, mister know-it-all.... Why did you not serve..... Chicken
Many of the rah rah enlistees back in the Vietnam era who didn't wait to be drafted, but eagerly enlisted to go "kill the commies" turned out to be the biggest cowards once under fire. I am not saying that all of them did, or even that the percentage of cowardly enlistees was higher than the percentage of cowardly draftees, just that the fact that someone enlisted is hardly indicative of how they will perform when they actually come under fire.
Becoming a hero is rarely an intentional act. Heroes are more often made than born. Just a couple of things to think about while we are on the subject.
One final very last word on the subject. I freely admit that I was far from a hero myself, but I knew a few, and the last place you are going to find them is on this board tooting their own horn. Most of the time it will take a crowbar to pry two words out of them on the subject.
Somehow my "pro Vet" post, on Veterans Day of all days, got misconstrued. I thought I reframed it sufficiently and made my pro-military stance known.
You were being magnanimous with your OP and I thought you weren't giving yourself and others ENOUGH credit on the hero/bravery front.
So in essence, I was using more flattery than maybe you and a few others felt comfortable with and I understand that.
My entire point was to praise our military and somehow I got bashed. But I have to blame myself for not being as clear as I should have for there clearly are nuances and subtleties to the praise I should/shouldn't dish out and you and Airborne have pointed that out well.
I don't get into arguments with Vets about their service or their views about others service. I have no frame of reference and I give them the benefit of the doubt. They provide the blanket of freedom that I sleep under and I don't question it.
and speaking strictly for myself, I took your post the way you meant it, but felt obligated to make a couple of points about real "heroism" and to point out that simply wearing the uniform and/or talking tough doesn't make a soldier a hero.
BTW your positions on these subjects of Law and Order and the military have been pretty consistent, I doubt any one is going to get the wrong idea about you. lol
some that were drafted were just 17 year old kids, certaintly not prepared to see so much death and have their phyche damaged at such a young age and then come home to be spat on, deal with agent orange for a lifetime. I am so happy we have evolved from that mind set. I am so proud of country for all it's challenges, victories, and self correcting. They are our heroes today too, even if the reason they keep going back today because they are worried about their brothers.
I am attaching the most beautiful song, if you wish give it a listen about those that haven't stepped off the plane (yet)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJrftgq6KKw
and disagree that we have evolved one iota from that "mind set", and I further disagree that eliminating the draft has helped change that mind set. IMO the opposite has happened. Rich people IOW "Senators sons" no longer have to serve, I can't think of a worse way to run a country than to have only poor people serving in our armed forces.
You of all people should be against so called "chicken hawks" getting us into wars that their sons and daughters won't have to fight. I am a complete supporter in bringing the draft back so that even "rich kids" will have to serve with the rest of us.
The Draft in the late 60's was about as fair as a KKK rally. It could have been equally administered but the privileged always seem to have an advantage. I will admit, when I was drafted in June '68 a good number of rich kids were at Fort Ord getting their basic.. Along with plenty of gheatto cats and vatos. Clulture clash?
Hope springs eternal and we naively thought the war would end in 6 months or, those of us who could type and had some college, would become "Remington Raiders" (clerks). WRONG! Most of us went straigt into Advanced Infintry Training. Although I was 11b, I was assigned to an aviation unit. I never had to walk point or hump.
I'm trying to not sound like my grand parents. By saying. " kids these days don't appreciate......."
The draft was desolved because the country was sick and tired of the war. It was a shitty stupid war.
But I do very much believe that every 18 or 19 year old be mandated to serve 1 or 2 years in the military or some other national service.
Prior to yesterday I had only viewed this board 2 or 3 times. I had never posted before, but I was bored and I get touchy around Memorial day and V day. I also have very little tolerance for those who never served who are pro military and pro war... Easy to be when you are safe and sound at home, and seeing $500 providers.
-- Modified on 11/12/2014 10:53:56 AM
even if we don't agree with the war. I wasn't talking about the evolving from the draft, but honoring our fallen and respecting service. Especially to those Vietnam vets that had no choice. I lived that time, and I thought for sure my uncle got his draft notice at 17 but maybe I was wrong.
I don't like a congress or president taking lightly, sending my kin to fight for the agenda of rich people while their rich sons are in boarding schools.
I hate war, but love the warrior. That's all. I think you know what I meant to convey, just as I understood Jack.
Have a good day!
-- Modified on 11/12/2014 11:07:18 AM
but I do believe the pendulum has swung too far. Not all servicemen and women are anything close to heroes, just like not all hookers are "Goddesses" but they certainly don't deserve to be looked down on like many people look at hookers today, and many people felt about returning vets not all that long ago. I never expected a ticker tape parade when I got out, but I expected at least a little bit better than what I got.
around 90 or 91? People stormed the street and ruined it LOL I remember one of the pitchers wives was 9 months pregnant and got taken to an Atlanta hospital. Smoltz?
I have my dads dog tag, I think he was dismissed from a previous shoulder injury and hitch hiked home. His twin brother served until they wouldn't let him do reserves anymore. 
I have two uncles Vietnam vets still alive, my grandfather still alive WWII. And a brother actively serving, and I swear the military turned his life around for a positive. He use to shoot dope on Freedom Pkyway and after his inheritance ran out, he joined the military as a last resort of being homeless. That was 97". It worked for him and he runs 5 miles a day now and living the life in Hawaii for the remainder of his duty. Was single most his time serving and always welcomed himself home to a trophy like a new corvette. I don't blame him at all. I know my dad would be so proud of him today!!! I hope he sees from wherever and knows his children turned out okay My brother is married to an Asian today imagine that gag 
I always thought he was gay, but he turned out to be just picky. I am aunt to a little blue eyed girl that looks like him. That's who he lives behind when deployed. So glad he is close to retirement, thank you God for hearing our prayers.
as for the military turning peoples lives around, there are a million stories like that, where a fucked up kid with no direction in his life finds discipline and a sense of pride by joining the Army (or Navy, Airforce, or Marines, sorry Coast Guard, but I do have my standards. lol) I am glad to hear your brother is doing good.
As GaGambler remarks, "the truth is somewhere in between."
Ubiquitous indeed! You can thank any clerk or restaurant server for their service. What many vets. want is not, an expression about them being a special person in any way, but an appreciation for the hardship they experienced during their service; whether they were draft, enlisted for patriotic feelings, or just didn't have any other opportunities for a future. So the operative word, I believe, is hardship, not service.
I personally value freedom from somewhere deep within my DNA. I cannot imagine living or being born anywhere but the USA. I prefer harmony and dislike wars. Maybe that comes from a selfish standpoint because a sibling has done 5 tours overseas since 911. And I didn't understand the sacrifice of missed birthdays, Christmas. And then not getting the home the same as before they left.
My freedom has been bought at a price of sacrifice that I could never give selflessly myself. It can tear me up seeing fighter jets fly overhead. I can cry at a sporting event singing the Star Spangled Banner. My freedom comes from a deep place of knowing that I treasure in my heart. With that said,
Thank you to all vets that served, and to those that gave all. I am a grateful American that loves freedom!
Madison
the bridge dwellers , a cheap blanket , sleeping bag or maybe some conversation and appreciaton can go a long way . A lot of them just aren't ready come inside yet. The wanna bees don't understand that .
-- Modified on 11/12/2014 3:48:48 AM
None of them had to die if politicians didn’t get us involved in wars we don’t have any business to be in. Since they got them killed, they have to have a way to cover up.
Only exception is WWII, all the rest after that falls into useless wars.
Some idiot is going to bring up Civil War in this debate. Doesn’t count wither.
So now you've included World War II as also being justified for U.S. participation.
Since it was YOU that brought up the American Civil War, I'll point out you just claimed that it too was unjustified saying that we had no business fighting that war and people needlessly died in it.
GEEZ.