I didn't say he was a saint. Always easy to exaggerate what the other side says and make them look foolish.
I just said he did a lot of good things, none of which you refuted. As to being honest: Ture you asked a question, but don't you know that sometimes the question itself shows the view of the person asking? Go back, look at the way the question is phrased and explained, and tell me it doesn't reflect view of the questioner, views also strongly suggested by this most recent postIn the sense that that person is truly is guided by "WWHD" (What would Jesus do).
Now, I propose this question to those who identify as being Christian, not to those who don't, those who don't believe in God, or Jesus, etc. Can one who puts profit over people be a Christian? Now, I know there's a continuum with people focused on one end, and profit focused on the other end, and I've seen mom and pop stores and some small companies that endeavored to to work on Biblical principals. However, can one who is to the extreme end regarding profit focused, be a true Christian? And, does that same person have a leg to stand on if they are breaking usury and Sabbath laws, while at the same time arguing against abortion, contraception and gay marriage? What would things look like if Christians practiced the Year of Jubilee or Sabbath Year; times of rest, restoration for the land and its people, forgiveness of debt, and emancipation for the slave and his family. Sounds it could hit the profit margins pretty hard! 
If you mean screwing people over, committing fraud, stealing, etc. then no, that is not a part of Christian teaching. But if you mean paying people a "living wage" and things the Left refer to when they consistently trash corporations, then that is something fundamentally different.
I often hear liberals talk about "unfair profits." I always laugh when I hear that term. Everyone I knew that owns/runs a business (and I meet with these people weekly) is looking to maximize profit as best they can.
By doing so, it gives them the opportunity to expand their business, hire more people and provide for their employees needs/wants as well as those of their family. And yes, they do benefit personally from their hard work and risk they take which I think is just. But I also think people that have been given so much have a duty to give back, as best they can.
Re: the article you link to, no, Jesus wasn't a "Marxist." He never involved himself with government redistribution of wealth. In fact, he distanced himself from that belief.
He believed in the power of the individual to help others, not a government program. He believed in charity, by choice, not forcing someone against their will to help or give to others.
“Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures, the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge, has marked the upward surge of mankind and greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the U.S.A." - from character Gordon Gekko in Wall Street
I'd say that best sums it up!
You appear fixated on the ideology of a small portion of the philosophical teachings of Jesus Christ. Which I do not associate with the fundamental structure of what you refer to as Christianity.
Which your argument compares to a false definition of Capitalism.
I do not how anyone can honestly form an intelligent response to such a comparison.
The argument is that of an ideology (Christianity) presented by people who do not subscribe to the ideology. Compared to the pseudo definition of the fundamental structure of the state economic system (Capitalism)
The argument is lost before it can begin.
You've taken to using a quote from a fictional character from a Hollywood movie to back up what you say? Are you really that pathetic?
I'd say that best sums it up!
"""He believed in the power of the individual to help others, not a government program. He believed in charity, by choice, not forcing someone against their will to help or give to others."""
I wonder if Jesus would be down with forcing people to give money? Would he consider liberals the Pharisees of our times?
The only hangup I have is I don't think Jesus was a Christian. By supporting the claim in his post, Matt' thinks that a person must believe in Christ, in order to adhere to the fundamental teachings of Christianity.
That in and of it self is supposed to be a sound argument against capitalism?
Their is no way for a democrat sound any more stupid.
Arguing against the nation's economic system using a religious belief in which they do not subscribe to. In order to make the republican voters believe that they are hypocrites to their faith.
The only thing that can top that, is Elizabeth Warren coming out against taxes. I guess EW is now a teabagger
How can you speak to two pieces of wood, one straight up and one horizontal let alone take advice or permission from? If that happened there would be no likes of Mitt Romney who thought it is OK to put all his wealth in Switzerland, Cayman Islands, Bahamas and pay no US taxes but still use the country's Interstates, Airports etc., which are built and maintained by Federal tax dollars!
The cheat was caught by IRS, and in 2009 took tax amnesty, paid penalty and back taxes. That is the reason he did not want to release his 2009 tax return.
What I have found out on this board is when someone comes out with facts and numbers, people freak out. Get it from me, pal. You don't follow something that does not exist in human form
The fact molten lava is red and black is indisputable.
The fact human active is the main cause of climate change is disputable.
The fact you were born in XXXX is unquestionable.
The fact you are XX years old is questionable.
[/quote
Then you are discussing fiction and living in Shangri - La.
Santa Clause and manic consumerism has got to be the most profitable religious ceremony in history.
It was even pin pointed by Zu-Zu in Frank Capra's holiday classic Its a Wonderful Life. "Every time a cash register rings an angel gets its wings"
Making one's little children sit on unknown guy's (could be ex con, sex offender, pedophile) lap is taking a religion to its most ridiculous and stupid level.
Particularly about the movie. if God and Jesus Christ do exist, I'm betting watching the Black Friday crowds warm the cockles of their hearts. NOT
Now, I propose this question to those who identify as being Christian, not to those who don't, those who don't believe in God, or Jesus, etc. Can one who puts profit over people be a Christian? Now, I know there's a continuum with people focused on one end, and profit focused on the other end, and I've seen mom and pop stores and some small companies that endeavored to to work on Biblical principals. However, can one who is to the extreme end regarding profit focused, be a true Christian? And, does that same person have a leg to stand on if they are breaking usury and Sabbath laws, while at the same time arguing against abortion, contraception and gay marriage? What would things look like if Christians practiced the Year of Jubilee or Sabbath Year; times of rest, restoration for the land and its people, forgiveness of debt, and emancipation for the slave and his family. Sounds it could hit the profit margins pretty hard!
You assume capitalists put profit over people.
I don't know if that is the case.
Use the Rockefellers for one example, since they made a rather large amoung of money. I ask "Who did they hurt."
The basis of Standard Oil was that the company provided a consistently good product for less money than other companies. It is true they made a penny (or so) for every gallon sold.
But every consumer benefited because they got a better product for less. In fact, by making oil and gas so affordable, they improved the lives of millions of people who could not afford it before.
His workers are next. True they made very little compared to JD, but the made more than they were making before, and while their work conditions were bad, they were better than they had been before. That is why tens of thousands of people quit their jobs and went to work for JD.
Having made a fortune improving the lives of consumers, buyers, and the public (AND HIMSELF), he proceeded to give hundreds of millions of dollars to the public. NY Museum of Art, and 100 other places in the city. (Think public part of Rock Center) He founded and paid for American University. The founded and preserved tens of thousands of acres of wild land in scores of locations, doing more to protect wild spaces than any one I can think of. The rebuilt scores of cultural treasures damaged and destroyed in the war. Hospitals, schools, art,......
The list goes on and on. JD was a devout Christian who believed he had to better the world. and he did. (The unintended consequences of oil are not his fault. That happens far worse in non-capitalist countries. Look at what the USSR did to its enviornment.
Finally, New York City just re-did four block in front of the Met Museum. Parks, fountains, places for people to sit and enjoy the city. It cost $63 million, took 4 years and was paid for by someone who previously gave over a billion dollars to charity. It was the Evil David Koch.
Take a map of NYC (Chicago, L.A., S.F. etc) Cross out everything built by capitalists that millions of people love and benefit from, or that could not have been done without them. (Don't forget the Zoo, and my fav library, owned by the City but paid for by capitalists.) Circle every remaining thing that was build by the government, and compare circles to blank spaces. Put a triangle around every wonderful thing in NYC built by a socialist
If you think JD was a saint watch "The Men Who Built America."
And, here are a few of his quotes:
"Competition is a sin."
John D. Rockefeller
Hence his striving for monopoly.
"Next to doing the right thing, the most important thing is to let people know you are doing the right thing."
John D. Rockefeller
This is directly against Jesus admonition to not toot one's own horn while putting one's donation in the pot.
"The way to make money is to buy when blood is running in the streets."
John D. Rockefeller
When I watched the show, my impression was that his religiosity was base on his narcissism. Being religious does not always equate with being spiritual.
There is a reason why Jesus said it would be extremely difficult for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. It's because God's economy runs by a different set of principles than man's economy. And man, as is pointed out throughout the Scriptures typical does not trust it. God has a long view on things, man a very short view, and for understandable reason. Our lives are finite
I didn't say he was a saint. Always easy to exaggerate what the other side says and make them look foolish.
I just said he did a lot of good things, none of which you refuted.
As to being honest: Ture you asked a question, but don't you know that sometimes the question itself shows the view of the person asking?
Go back, look at the way the question is phrased and explained, and tell me it doesn't reflect view of the questioner, views also strongly suggested by this most recent post
My remark about if you thought he was a Saint is more of a common phrase to emphasize that a person has another side to him, not that I thought you viewed him as a Saint.
But, I would like to understand what view you believe I have, based on your reading of my questions.
Of course I realize people have other sides to them. Pointing that out is like saying it is lighter during the day.
Did you ever do literary analysis. Did Lady McBeth really faint, or did she feign it.
Look at your first post and see if there is a hint of bias in the question and follow up explanation.
paraphrase, not quoting but Can your really be a Christian if you value filthy lucre over the well being of other people and covet all the profits of King Midas?
Just a question. No indication of view there
nor am I playing coy; just trying to promote a discussion. However, my main point was: "...can one who is to the extreme end regarding profit focused, be a true Christian? And, does that same person have a leg to stand on if they are breaking usury and Sabbath laws, while at the same time arguing against abortion, contraception and gay marriage?"
The problem I have is with those who argue their case against gay marriage, abortion, and contraception using the the Bible and claiming to be Christians as their basis, when in reality they are anything but Christian in regards to Jesus' teachings. Perhaps a Mennonite or Quaker may have a leg to stand on in such arguments, but you don't see them in the political mix when governmental policies are established.
So, my main question is, can a professed Christian, who breaks Biblical laws, probably on a daily, or at least on a weekly basis, use their profession of faith, and Scripture as an argument against abortion, contraception, and/or gay marriage? Or, said in another way, can they pick and choose which Biblical principles are enforceable, and which ones are not. If God does exist, I would think he would say no.
And, if you take away the supposedly Christian view on each argument against, does it leave each stronger, weaker, or about the same. For myself, I'd say weaker.
First, "extreme profit." What is "extreme." Yeah, Gates and Rocky made a ton of money. Maybe two tons. But the provided services of value to 100,000,000 people for 100 years in the case of JD. They gave good jobs to millions (look at SF now) and billions and billions and billions to charity. With all his money Gates will do more good for the world than the state of CA.
I really don't know what is extreme.
Second, your assumption about usary laws is flawed. That is not an "ex cathedra" belief of Christianity, and certainly not of all sects. Likewise, Sabbath laws are not on that level either. It is true that 500 years ago more Christians had a stricter view, but it was not based on literal scripture. And doctrine does change, too long a story to go into now.
Third, you have a problem with "Christian views" on this like gay rights, abortion, saying that in reality Christian views are so out of focus with Jesus's teachings.
With all due respect, I love it when non-believers say that the true faith is. Not just you, but Obama just did it. He says he is Cristian and then says "real Moslems don't....." Christians can't define "real Moslem faith."
Likewise, exactly where is your Biblical source for Jesus view being pro gay rights or pro abortion. I don' think 2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 or any other verse says, "Go forth and support abortion."
Finally, when you say "break law on a daily basis, and yet call themselves Chrisitian," again you fail to understand doctrine.
Doctrine assumes that Christians will fall and sin and have lapses of faith and behavior. That is why Mother Teressa wrote about her doubts in her diaries. Christian doctrine has a word for those who don't sin - "Saint"
And even saints sin and doubt in Christian orthodoxy.
My favorite sinner is St. Augustine who prayed to God, "Make me chaste, but not yet."
Even Jesus had his moment of doubt and pain, at least according to Saint Mick J.
In one manifestation of my early life I was a philosphy major and know the 5 main faiths fairly well. If you are really serious about learning, there are great sources on them. With all due respect, posting on a forum where the primary focus is prostitution, is not the best place to get answers on theology.
Finally, I am not saying I believe in any of that. I am only saying that this is who the people you are referring to can consider themselves Christian.
but in the very same breath you claim NOT to share their beliefs.
One time, I would be wiling to give you the benefit of the doubt, and in fact I did. Maybe even two times, or even three, but EVERYTIME this subject comes up you ALWAYS respond, and you ALWAYS respond in the same way defending Christians.
Come on Phil, we are THAT clueless around here, or at least not all of us are. Why don't you just come out and admit that you are indeed a Christian yourself. Are you really that ashamed of being labeled a Christian? Not that I can really blame you of course, defending Christianity is not only a fulltime job, it's also an effort in futility as the horrors perpetrated in the name of Christ are too numerous to list. but still, isn't it long past time to fess up?
Sorry. I am not a Chistian. I was born Jewish, my grandfather was a rabbi. I am lapsed and only go to temple for weddings, funerals and bar mitzvahs. I also go for cultural and historal purposes out of curiosity when I travel. I have been to the synagoges in Istambul, Rome, Florence, Venice Bordeaux, London.
Next week I am going to the synagoge in Colmar (France) and Strabourg (Same).
I never defend the Jewish faith because it is never attacked.
Really. I am a lanzaman. Do you want a photo of my wienie to prove it.
One time, I would be wiling to give you the benefit of the doubt, and in fact I did. Maybe even two times, or even three, but EVERYTIME this subject comes up you ALWAYS respond, and you ALWAYS respond in the same way defending Christians.
Come on Phil, we are THAT clueless around here, or at least not all of us are. Why don't you just come out and admit that you are indeed a Christian yourself. Are you really that ashamed of being labeled a Christian? Not that I can really blame you of course, defending Christianity is not only a fulltime job, it's also an effort in futility as the horrors perpetrated in the name of Christ are too numerous to list. but still, isn't it long past time to fess up?
While you keep thinking I am Christian because I defend Christianity, I would refer you to other conservative Jews who have a clear identity as Jewish columinists. Two to start are Dennis Prager and Micheal Medved.
They are ardent defenders of Christianity, more so than me.
Also, even thought they are ardent defenders and frequently are speakers a Christian events, they are undeniable Jewish. Off the air every holiday. Prager leads High Holiday services. I think they are both Conservative.
Likewise, Ben Shapiro is Orthodox. Kosher. Strict Sabbath observed.
He is also a major defender of Christianity./
In short, many conservative Jews take the same position via Christianity as I do.
Just becasue I defend it does not make me more Christian that Prager, Medved, or Shapiro.
One time, I would be wiling to give you the benefit of the doubt, and in fact I did. Maybe even two times, or even three, but EVERYTIME this subject comes up you ALWAYS respond, and you ALWAYS respond in the same way defending Christians.
Come on Phil, we are THAT clueless around here, or at least not all of us are. Why don't you just come out and admit that you are indeed a Christian yourself. Are you really that ashamed of being labeled a Christian? Not that I can really blame you of course, defending Christianity is not only a fulltime job, it's also an effort in futility as the horrors perpetrated in the name of Christ are too numerous to list. but still, isn't it long past time to fess up?
I see no pretzel at all. I am not a Christian either and you know I often come to their defense. Christians come to the defense of Jews. It actually IS in their religious DNA, right. Why not Jews returning the favor, although I'm fairly certain that's not phil's motivation.
-- Modified on 10/7/2014 10:11:51 AM
Conservative Jews like Christians partly because of their support for Isreal. During the infitada, when people were cancelling trips, Christians were great supporters.
Orthodox and Conservative Jews do not care of fundamentalists think they are going to hell. That is their belief and obviously they have different views in terms of religion. If they didn't they wouldn't have different religions.
The Orthodox don't care what Chrisians think, as long as they act well to them.
Off to France. Have
into a pretzel; avoiding answering my questions by asking your own.
What question didn't I answer.
You asked how a self-proclaimed christian can call himself that when he is in conflict with the teachings of Christ. I explained that he wasn't in conflict and even if he fell it didn't defeat his self-label. I did it in detail that I won't go into.
But to get to your question. What question didn't I answer? Ask it as a simple question and I will try
the healthy kind obama has, right?
force me to agree with you that is.
I haven't read "The men who built America" but as an independent oil man I know a lot about Rockefeller's business practices and if that's the definition of how a "Good Christian" conducts his business, I think Phil has just proven your point. Rockefeller was ruthless, and as crooked as they come, and just like many other Christians he did a lot of the evil he did in the name of Christ.
Honestly, I don't think Phil could have picked a better example to prove your point if he had tried.
Not all rich people get to be that way by lying, cheating, and stealing, but an inordinate number of the uber rich do seem to get there that way.
It was a show on the History channel that won 2 Emmy's.
Like George Soros?
I haven't read "The men who built America" but as an independent oil man I know a lot about Rockefeller's business practices and if that's the definition of how a "Good Christian" conducts his business, I think Phil has just proven your point. Rockefeller was ruthless, and as crooked as they come, and just like many other Christians he did a lot of the evil he did in the name of Christ.
Honestly, I don't think Phil could have picked a better example to prove your point if he had tried.
Not all rich people get to be that way by lying, cheating, and stealing, but an inordinate number of the uber rich do seem to get there that way.
and yet I consider myself an adventurous capitalist! I have taken risks that have paid off for me. I have also helped people but learned to never help if I am left feeling used or taken. But when I do help and it comes from a place of my heart, I see miracles that come back to me more than double fold.
I am not a Christian but believe parts of the Bible are extraordinary and come from a higher-being of a God (if we must label what we don't understand)
All things work together for good, for those that LOVE God and are CALLED for his divine purpose.
To me that means that when I am wronged (burglarized, etc) that all things are made right. I truly believe that. Or when I give from my heart, others also give back to me from their heart when I am in need.
I run my business endeavors with honesty and integrity, and that is how my endeavors pay off. Because people trust me. I trade with my customers as much as possible when I need their services and they and I both understand you can't work for FREE! I will never apologize or feel guilty for making profit for my risks and time. :
like the democrats do and help the poor. we know babs boxer and nancy pelosi live in dirt huts filled with street people, so why not you too?
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