Second, as a result ,the Israeli spin machine wins the day. The killing of innocent civilians? Well, “we warned them to get out and we are using ‘targeted air strikes.’”
Um – there is no such thing as a “targeted air strike” in a place like Gaza.
“Ben Gurion airport is so safe that the FAA was wrong to stop flights.”
Somehow the Pallys have missed the obvious contradiction here – the whole justification of the invasion is that the rockets and tunnel do pose a real risk to the population; yet somehow this risk disappears when the airport is involved.
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/If-we-dont-deal-with-Gaza-tunnels-now-these-threats-will-come-to-us-368922 Why are there rockets in United Nation's schools? They were smuggled in? I don't think so. It is hard to hide a rocket. The UN people knew they were there. When they were revealed (note that I did not say discovered), they were returned to Hammas. WTF? Why wern't they disabled and destroyed by the UN
First, the Palestinians are losing badly in the PR battle. They lack an articulate thoughtful spokesperson who can come across as reasonable. Worst of all, not a one of the pro –Pally talking heads has thought out an answer to the two questions that always get asked- isn’t Hamas a terrorist organization given that its charter calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews? What is Israel suppose to do given that Hamas keeps firing rockets and has built all those terror tunnels?
They either duck the question or ramble about past Israel atrocities.
Second, as a result ,the Israeli spin machine wins the day. The killing of innocent civilians? Well, “we warned them to get out and we are using ‘targeted air strikes.’”
Um – there is no such thing as a “targeted air strike” in a place like Gaza.
“They spend no money on defense but all on offense” – true, but this ignores that the Pallys would never have enough funds to build any kind of meaningful defense.
“Ben Gurion airport is so safe that the FAA was wrong to stop flights.”
Somehow the Pallys have missed the obvious contradiction here – the whole justification of the invasion is that the rockets and tunnel do pose a real risk to the population; yet somehow this risk disappears when the airport is involved.
When the number of Pally civilians killed passes 800 and is heading to a thousand, however, the question of force disproportionate to the risk becomes a real one.
This is a tough one for Israel.
But wait -are the Pally civilians really “innocent civilians”? Didn’t they elect the thugs of Hamas with their “kill the Jews” charter? An op ed in the WSJ made this argument and claimed the civilians were effectively complicit. Even the children? No answer to that one in the Op Ed.
This argument is ridiculous on its face – it is hard to distinguish from the Osama Bin Laden defense – he gave this one as a justification for 9/11.
So there are no clear good guys in this mess. The Hamas thugs are clearly the bad guys but they are a fraction of the population. But if the rockets and tunnel pose at best a de minimus risk, then the invasion is clearly disproportionate force.
I really don’t know how to conclude on this one.
If only our most objective poster was still around to explain all this to us, or at least give us the Pally rationale is his usual objective fashion
Why? Because the GOP likes to give a never ending BBBJ to Israel every chance they get. Yet, strangely, there isn't a single Republican Jew in Congress. So why on earth would the very fundamentalist Christian right give their undying support for Israel? Could this have something to do with their DELUSIONS? Something about how the Jews must control Israel in order for the RAPTURE to happen?
No wonder why these people think climate change is no big deal. They think the END TIMES is neat-o, and they just can't wait for it to happen.
Let's get real. Hamas is a terrorist organization. And the gov't of Israel is also a terrorist organization. The sooner the two wipe each other out the better it will be.
Our problem is that we only give weapons to the Israelis. What we ought to start doing is giving weapons to Hamas too. As far as I'm concerned, the best case scenario is that they completely kill each other off. That way there will be plenty of fertilizer so you can grow something other than misery there.
That is ridiculous on its face and frankly is offensive. And you cannot call the government of Israel a “terrorist organization” on the same level as Hamas. You may as well call the US government a terrorist organization for killing maybe 10 to 1 innocents in drone strikes.
Israel has a legitimate problem and I would support any military force if it could be used strictly against the Hamas bad guys. The intractable part of the problem is that Israel cannot take out the bad guys without killing 10 to 1 innocents in the process
Israel does everything possible to protect their innocents whereas hamas puts their innocents in harms way, hamas uses them as human shields. In fact hamas puts them in the line of fire to create casualties.
Thank you
2014 = GOP Senate and House
You know what I find offensive? 3,000 Americans being sent to early graves because we decided to pick sides in a religious civil war that has nothing to do with us.
Hamas uses terrorist tactics because that's the best defense they have. Israel blows things up with bombs your tax dollars paid for because that's the best defense they have. Israel makes political demands upon Hamas and the Palestinians, and use threats of violence and acts of violence to carry out those demands. That is the very definition of terrorism. Therefore, Israel is a terrorist state.
What we need to do is do everything we can to get each side to kill each other off. If we could whip up some disease that only killed Muslims and Jews, then we should airdrop blankets on that miserable waste of space.
Or here's a better idea, with climate change and rising sea levels, can't we figure out a way for that entire worthless piece of land to be under water? The problem solves itself! And then I'll never have to see those crazy SOB's on my TV again.
Second, as a result ,the Israeli spin machine wins the day. The killing of innocent civilians? Well, “we warned them to get out and we are using ‘targeted air strikes.’”
Um – there is no such thing as a “targeted air strike” in a place like Gaza.
The Pallys have built a lot of tunnels. Could have used that money for defense.
Here is the kicker: If the Pally's had not launched the rockets, they would not need to defend against anything. Cost of defending against nothing: $0
“Ben Gurion airport is so safe that the FAA was wrong to stop flights.”
Somehow the Pallys have missed the obvious contradiction here – the whole justification of the invasion is that the rockets and tunnel do pose a real risk to the population; yet somehow this risk disappears when the airport is involved.
Red herring. You are confusing short-term risk vs. long-term risk. The USA did not have short-term risk against the Germans in WW II. Yet, there would have been a lot of long-term risk if we let them win.
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/If-we-dont-deal-with-Gaza-tunnels-now-these-threats-will-come-to-us-368922
Why are there rockets in United Nation's schools? They were smuggled in? I don't think so. It is hard to hide a rocket. The UN people knew they were there. When they were revealed (note that I did not say discovered), they were returned to Hammas. WTF? Why wern't they disabled and destroyed by the UN
about the short term risk and long term risk:
"Red herring. You are confusing short-term risk vs. long-term risk. The USA did not have short-term risk against the Germans in WW II. Yet, there would have been a lot of long-term risk if we let them win. "
I say “long term risk” is almost never justification for a military invasion. Once you adopt that view, any war is justified. Russia still has that long range nuclear arsenal- they pose more of a long term risk to the US than any other country. Shouldn’t we invade? Hezbollah poses more of a long term risk to Israel than Hamas. Should Israel invade and take out their more numerous and powerful rockets?
No, “clear and present danger” has to be the test to invade a city and that is where the invasion of Gaza breaks down. It may be “intolerable” to have civilians fleeing to bomb shelters but the facts are that so few of these rockets get past the Iron Dome that the risk is de minimus. That is not just my opinion - those are the fats on the ground. I don’t know what the solution is but if hundreds and counting of innocents must be killed to get rid of these missiles, that is not the right solution.
I would also take issue with your defense if the so called “targeted air strike”:
Yes there is. If Israel is going to target a building or a block, they let people know and give them time to clear out.
Dude, the facts on the ground defeat your argument here. Hundreds of Pally civilians and children have been killed. And the Israelis knew on Day One that this would happen. Yes, they have tried everything in their power to minimize these deaths but the bottom line is a targeted air strike is only as good as the intelligence that identifies the target and the execution by the pilot – and even when both done perfectly there is still a good chance that innocents will be killed
I say “long term risk” is almost never justification for a military invasion.
> Yes there is. If Israel is going to target a building or a block,
> they let people know and give them time to clear out.
Dude, the facts on the ground defeat your argument here. Hundreds of Pally civilians and children have been killed. And the Israelis knew on Day One that this would happen. Yes, they have tried everything in their power to minimize these deaths but the bottom line is a targeted air strike is only as good as the intelligence that identifies the target and the execution by the pilot – and even when both done perfectly there is still a good chance that innocents will be killed.
Who's fault is it if a hurricane is coming, the government warns you to leave, and people are killed who refused to leave?
-- Modified on 7/27/2014 1:35:07 PM
...get the Latin right. It's "de minimis", not "de minimus." mrfisher still runs circles around you.
Sic semper evello mortem moronis!
I’d say your contribution to the thread is …de minimis.
Is that better
I think the Hamas PR campaign is working quite nicely given who they are and what they have to work with. They have achieved your sympathy, the sympathy of the U.N, most of Europe, many in the U.S. media and several in the U.S. Government.
If it's not clear yet, I have no problem choosing sides in this mess and it's not based on any religious aspects. I'm not religious. It's based on 65 years of Israel history.
Targeted air strike? Would you like to see a targeted air strike?
Notice at the 9 second mark the warning rocket fired at the roof.
Then notice how precisely that building fell at the 26 second mark.
So did you calculate a mere 17 seconds of warning? Au contraire, This is some more Hamas brilliant PR at work. Rewind the video to the 21 second mark at concentrate at the shadow in the lower left corner (just to the left of the F16). You will see it jump. Also observable is the flopping guy wire just above the sat dish. It jumps at the same time. I wound estimate that several minutes have been removed for one effect only.
Is this "good" PR?
There's no doubt some innocent children are killed due to Israeli accidents but I wager the vast majority are being killed due to actions of Hamas, and for what? PR, no doubt. Or maybe the Israel PR machine is just really good.
-- Modified on 7/28/2014 8:32:36 PM
That is it, three Israeli kids went missing or kidnapped ending up dead. That is how everything we see today started. Now to compare this to US. A total of 40 people were killed in 4 mass shootings including 5 people who were at a temple for prayers, 20 elementary school children sitting in their class. This was totally unprovoked and the victims had nothing to do with the killers.
What is our response? Prayers, candles, flowers and legislative actions to make more weapons to be easily available and the right to carry them everywhere. The US Senate Minority leader walks in to a political conference with a huge rifle in his hand! Another one says "your dead child does not trump my constitutional right to have guns".
It all comes down to "value for human life". The three Israeli kids were innocent as were those 20 elementary school children sitting in their class. They all ended up dead but the response from their respective Governments tells a lot
...guns are used for things other than mass shootings, right?
I think Gaza and Hamas need a slogan. What do think? How about
"Gaza....you'll come for the stoning, but you'll stay for the beheading"
"Hamas...not just another terrorist organization"
A good PR campaign includes developing messaging against your opponent to sway public opinion in your favor. How about
"Israel....God's chosen killers" (lmao)
But you are right in the fact that the Palestinians/Hamas has not articulated a coherent message that tugs at your heart and wallet. Israel plays on the security, victim, and Arabs don't want peace themes. And it works. If you look at Gaza, it's 140 square miles (1/4 the size of LA) with 1.8M residents living in basically a prison (continuous blockade), squalor and abject poverty. You would think that would resonate with the world community. Just based on that alone, one could understand why Hamas does what it does.
I hate to say mari, but 99% of Americans don't care. I'm totally desensitized to the conflict. This shit happens every 2 years, either from Hamas or Hezbollah from the north. Now add the multiple conflicts all around the Middle East. Seriously, you need a scorecard to figure out the players. And with all the geopolitical stuff going on, the stock market appears totally immune to it.
There just seems to be a more efficient and effective way for Israel to get the results vs bombing a place that looks like a cesspool. Don't you think Israel could've gone Kaiser Soze on the Hamas leadership, and get the same results without inflicting pain and suffering on innocent Palestinian women and children? Oops, Usual Suspects, great movie.
Oh, one last slogan...."Gaza...size doesn't matter". Good one, but I just found out that it's Israel's tourism slogan. "Israel, size doesn't matter". Wonder what that says about Jewish men (lol).
They either duck the question or ramble about past Israel atrocities.
Second, as a result ,the Israeli spin machine wins the day. The killing of innocent civilians? Well, “we warned them to get out and we are using ‘targeted air strikes.’”
Um – there is no such thing as a “targeted air strike” in a place like Gaza.
“They spend no money on defense but all on offense” – true, but this ignores that the Pallys would never have enough funds to build any kind of meaningful defense.
“Ben Gurion airport is so safe that the FAA was wrong to stop flights.”
Somehow the Pallys have missed the obvious contradiction here – the whole justification of the invasion is that the rockets and tunnel do pose a real risk to the population; yet somehow this risk disappears when the airport is involved.
When the number of Pally civilians killed passes 800 and is heading to a thousand, however, the question of force disproportionate to the risk becomes a real one.
This is a tough one for Israel.
But wait -are the Pally civilians really “innocent civilians”? Didn’t they elect the thugs of Hamas with their “kill the Jews” charter? An op ed in the WSJ made this argument and claimed the civilians were effectively complicit. Even the children? No answer to that one in the Op Ed.
This argument is ridiculous on its face – it is hard to distinguish from the Osama Bin Laden defense – he gave this one as a justification for 9/11.
So there are no clear good guys in this mess. The Hamas thugs are clearly the bad guys but they are a fraction of the population. But if the rockets and tunnel pose at best a de minimus risk, then the invasion is clearly disproportionate force.
I really don’t know how to conclude on this one.
If only our most objective poster was still around to explain all this to us, or at least give us the Pally rationale is his usual objective fashion.
I mean, when you're product is "Kill the Jew" and you can't sell it, the problem has got to be the message, not the product.
These guys line up to get killed like they're waiting for the early release of the new I-phone.
Now run along and enjoy your $100 hookers!
Target assassination of the Hamas military leaders. The Mossad is so good at that. Even though the Hamas president is supposedly in Qatar that shouldn’t matter. See Munich, the movie. But let’s stop at the leaders, not their families. As I recall Keyser Suze killed the bad guys, their families, and then the parents of the bad guys.
Speaking of Gabriel Byrne, check out “Le Capital” where he plays a hedge fund manager attempting to take over a French bank by inducing it to buy a worthless Japanese bank and thereby sink French banks stock price. Filmed in Paris, New York and Miami. You will feel right home with the action and lifestyle LOL. The Ethiopian supermodel doesn’t hurt either. Yes it is partly in French but even my dismal French was good enough to follow except when he talks about capital requirements for banks. Screenwriting breaks down toward the end
At least under the current situation. I may have another opinion in coming weeks/months but as of now, I have no issue with what the Israeli's are doing. None.
Every one of those civilian deaths is on the hands of Hamas. You can't use mosques and schools to launch rockets from and not expect civilian casualties and tons of them. Hamas uses the deaths of children as a propaganda and PR tool against Israel and I hope the Israeli resolve stays strong against that straw man argument.
Tell me if you lived in Buffalo and were getting rocketed from Toronto or if San Antonio was getting rocketed from Mexico how many Americans would be asking the U.S. military for a "proportionate" response?
The rational and correct thing to do is destroy the threat in such a matter that it neutralizes the instant existential threat and to give pause to the enemy from ever doing it again.
No one ever talked about proportionality in WW2. Was using nukes on Hiroshima or Nagasaki "proportional"? Fk no. And nor should it have been. Werent hundreds of thousands of innocents killed during those two bombings? Yes. But was it the right thing to do? ABSOLUTELY.
War is about destroying your enemies ability to kill you first. Nothing more, nothing less.
for consistency.
For starters your premise is incorrect:
"The rational and correct thing to do is destroy the threat in such a matter that it neutralizes the instant existential threat and to give pause to the enemy from ever doing it again."
Hamas does not pose an “existential threat” to Israel. No one contends that. The degree of risk they actually pose is at the heart of my post and why the ground invasion and “targeted airstrikes” are a disproportionate use of force. Why not use St. Croix’s targeted assassination of Hames leaders approach? That is what Benji should have done. Don't burn the forest to catch the fox. Take out the fox.
And yes the bombing of Japan in WWII was probably the greatest disproportionate use of force the world will ever see. Do that today and the president is branded the greatest war criminal of all time.
Now go stand in the corner with Willy
but to the individual citizens in which the rockets can reach, which is 75% of the Jewish state. Of course there is a clear distinction between a potential nuclear armed Iran and Hamas. Well aware, Mari.
St Croix's approach should be in addition to what I am saying, not in lieu of it. Taking out their leaders is not a zero sum game. There is a terrorist waiting in the wings to replace him so I am not overly hopeful about that approach. And are you sure Israel isn't already doing that?
Also the assassination route takes time Mari, something the Israeli's don't have. Destroying those rocket batteries asap is MUCH more important in the short run as the targeting of the Hamas leaders would be much more of a longer term strategy.
And I am not going anywhere near that corner with Willy. lol. That fker thinks Israel is a terrorist state. Put him next to BP if you want. roflmao
And lastly you need to look into the "lesser of two evils" theory. Oft times, like this one, and like ending the War in Japan in 1945, all you have left is two poor choices but that always leaves plenty of critics either way you choose, right
That may be valid not so much as to rockets where you would have to be REALLY unlucky to be hit but valid as to the tunnels, the very purpose of which is to enable killers to emerge and take out civilians.
Good point also as to the time problem. It may be too late now to take out the leaders, although I would argue they should have done this earlier.
But I’m frustrated that your entire response totally ignores the killing of the innocent civilians. You can’t just ignore that when evaluating the Israeli decision to go all in.
Nonetheless, maybe I was a bit harsh in sending you to the corner with Willy, although we all know he does not really mean what he says. So I’m sending you to a different corner with the annoying BigPapa.
That’s fair, isn’t it
You haven't yet imagined what "all in" looks like.
Think Dresden, Germany, February 1945.
Think Tokyo, 1945
I honestly dont know what people think Israel should do. Let the rockets continue and keep the tunnels open b/c children and women are protecting them?
You seem to think Israel is responsible, at least in part, for the children's deaths and I dont. That's where we differ. If home invaders are killed by a mom protecting her kids, are the deaths "caused" by the mom? Technically yes, but morally? Of course not.
I believe Israel takes incredible steps to reduce/minimize civilian casualties and I dont get the feeling you do, or maybe you do to a lesser extent than I? Should they try and do better? Of course! Every caring democracy should care about "collateral" damage. (Fk, I hate that term!)
As much as I cant stand Obama, I would never accuse him of intentionally targeting civilians with drone strikes. It is a VERY unfortunate side effect of dealing with ruthless, heartless terrorists and their propensity to avail themselves with human shields.
I also think you place too much emphasis on the lack of "physical" casualties to the Israeli population by a rocket (where we agree the likelihood of death by rocket fire is very low) and not enough emphasis on the psychological damage, i.e. the "terror" that never ending sirens, explosions, etc cause to Israeli's.
Either way, all things considered, I'd rather sit with Willy. lol. At least he'll make me laugh and I think I'd get better weed from him. roflmao
can give them food ,water , medical , and solace . Anybody in the free world that can't understand it's the jihadist mindset and they don't give a rats ass should walk outside and smash their retarded head against a wall.
Hamas has broke every ceasefire and they also started this fight . If you limp dicks can't understand it then slap yourself
And then STFU
-- Modified on 7/27/2014 10:16:42 PM
it's the "who started it" argument. Ask a Palestinian who started it. They will spend the next 3 hours whining about nonsense. Ask an Israeli the same question. And they will do the exact same thing. Bitch, bitch, bitch, whine, whine, whine.
That's why I say kill 'em all. As far as I'm concerned, the USA should nuke them both, and tell them to shut the phuck up already.
...working for peace? Would they just be collateral damage in willy's world?
Because there sure as chit isn't any peace there right now. And the longer this b.s. keeps up, the more the Muslim crazies will get riled up and blame us for what Israel is doing. Do you honestly think the dolts over at homeland security and the NSA could prevent another 9-11? I don't think so. And I really don't like it when my fellow countrymen get killed by the thousands. That's why I say kill 'em all. We should find some nutty Jewish extremist group and some nutty Islamist group fighting over there and have the CIA smuggle backpack nukes to both sides, and take bets on which group use it first. When that miserable p.o.s. strip of land is turned into a radioactive glass parking lot, then there will be peace in the Middle East, and not a second sooner.
how about the Afghan farmer who tries to stop the Taliban from forcing his son to join them so they chop his head off. Did he start it ? I could list examples of fucked up Islamist jihad BS all night that doesn't include a Jew , Christian or a American.
Rabid dogs !
Swampbeachdownrang
Transaction declined
Unfortunately it looks like your attempt to purchase VIP membership has failed due to your card being declined. Good news is that we have several other payment options that you could try.
We thank you for your purchase!
Membership should be activated shortly. You'll receive notification!