Legal Corner

Quite easily I'm afraid
Dr Who revived 838 reads
posted

As was wit with the shutting down of casino sites (back in 2011) not located in the States.

Same as shutting down a site run in Amsterdam.  If there is illegal monies running through the wires...just do the math.  And of course the argument is there is "nothing illegal happening on TER..or other review sites".  Seems like that was/is the argument for gaming as well.

I also disagree that the "low hanging fruit" isn't a likely target.  Seems like CL was taken down a few years back and seems like BP is next.  And in those cases there was nothing more than what you see on ad pages here.

I hope you're right and that Federal LE will move on to more important issues...but if they (as in the Feds) want to shut down P411...TER...Eros and so on...it won't be a difficult task.

But since prostitution isn't going anywhere...others will pop up in short order.

As I said earlier...it's whack a mole.
Posted By: SirWilliam00
Posted By: Dr Who revived
You know as well as anyone here that LE is active on this site...and nearly every other prostitution based site operating.  
     
  It has been easier to so a "sting" using the low hanging fruit (hence CL and BP being easy targets)...but to honestly think that each and every site being used for illegal activities isn't a target is short sighted.  
 
   
 Stings that use people verified on P411 and other services are a far cry from the sites themselves being shut down.  How would the FBI shut down a site hosted and run from Canada?  
   
Honestly...TER has been "THE" player in the prostitution world for quite a while now.  If someone decided that they wanted to make a big splash...easy enough to do that.
   
 Easy?  How is it "easy" for zealous law enforcement to take down a site hosted and run in Amsterdam?  
   
 It doesn't matter what the size of the target is.  There are lots of websites in the US people from abroad would like taken down but it's not happening because what they do is legally OK in the U.S.  
   
 Do you need to be careful of responding to ads on ANY escorting site of any size?  Of course, but that is why the mantra has always been to see well-reviewed providers where you can tell the set of reviews looks legit, or you've been seeing a name come up for a while.  
   
 Personally I think the tide against federal law enforcement overreach in the U.S. is growing, and that will have impact going forward in the next few years...  
 

Jack_Inhoff3805 reads

Slimy politicians will make all kinds of "state of the XYZ" speeches. Governors will make state of the state addresses. The president will make state of the union addresses. You get my point.  

Having said this, it's fair to wonder about the state of this industry.  We know about the other review site that was shut down by the feds. Today, I was just made aware of another site that shut down recently. The site contains a message saying that "due to what happened with the other review site, we feel we are more vulnerable than ever before" or something like that.  

Then we just recently had a thread on this very GD board expressing serious concerns about p411.

Take these situations into consideration, what is the state of this industry, at least online?  Does this signify that the feds are succeeding in their goal of shutting down this industry on the internet? Are the feds breathing down our necks more than ever?  

What's going on?

JackDunphy1181 reads

The industry does seem, at least in the U.S., to be under attack. With the NSA spying on Americans and the press, this shouldn't surprise anyone but should scare the hell out of everyone.

HOPEFULLY, this fall, more libertarian type politicians will win elections and beat this wave back that has been building, but I cant say I am overly optimistic.

As much as I cant stand Obama, many Republicans are acting in a similar fashion when it comes to our rights. In addition to the NSA, the IRS is completely out of control and couple that with the Patriot Act, we as Americans have lost so many rights over the last 10-12 years it would make our founding fathers cringe.

A willingness to jettison liberty in the face of perceived adversity has long been part of the American psyche. Just a dozen years after ratifying the Bill of Rights, we had the Alien and Sedition Acts. The nation acquiesced to Lincoln’s suspension of habeas corpus during the Civil War, the executions in the wake of the Haymarket Riot in the 1880’s, the internment camps during WW II, O’Brien and the draft card cases of the 1960’s right through the Patriot Act and Lopez and the Guantanamo Cases.  
In light of history, shutting down our little world in the name of stamping out trafficking would hardly fan the fire of liberty under siege

John Fogarty penned this ditty back in the late 1960s when the government began to crack down on anti-war and anti-government movements in general.

The lyrics still are timely for anyone undergoing repression.

To sum it up:  Keep your things together.

(Be smart and play safe, in other words.)

Here is another one - on topic...  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5zZKawkcB



-- Modified on 8/17/2014 5:06:12 PM

Whoring has been around since we walked upright...and I don't see it stopping (whoring that is  LOL) anytime soon.

However since P4P has taken to an online platform (in particular the past 10 years) it's allowed so much easier access to it.  What I've noticed is that some realized how best to maximize their marketing on these platforms.  That has been a good thing for many women, as they are off the government rent rolls and supplying those willing to pay for their services a place to determine if the values are there.

However as these platforms get larger they attract attention.  As you noted some of the "other" sites have either been seized...or voluntarily shut down.  And certainly TER is far from above any agency deciding to shut it down.  You've seen this with other industries already.

It may very well be that this "war on prostitution" will be as successful as the "war on drugs".  And eventually this country will realize a better option.

The bubble I refer to is that as the opportunity to maximize income has been allowed via this medium...it does seem that prices have skyrocketed in some markets.  There are all viable reasons for this...but many who had never experienced a real "recession" until 2008 now realize (for the most part) that unrealistic valuations based on air balls is not sustainable.

Bulls win...Bears win...Pigs get slaughtered!

Posted By: Jack_Inhoff
Slimy politicians will make all kinds of "state of the XYZ" speeches. Governors will make state of the state addresses. The president will make state of the union addresses. You get my point.  
   
 Having said this, it's fair to wonder about the state of this industry.  We know about the other review site that was shut down by the feds. Today, I was just made aware of another site that shut down recently. The site contains a message saying that "due to what happened with the other review site, we feel we are more vulnerable than ever before" or something like that.  
   
 Then we just recently had a thread on this very GD board expressing serious concerns about p411.  
   
 Take these situations into consideration, what is the state of this industry, at least online?  Does this signify that the feds are succeeding in their goal of shutting down this industry on the internet? Are the feds breathing down our necks more than ever?    
   
 What's going on?  

Two of the incidents you cite are not part of any trend.  The "other review site that was shut down by the Feds" was, in large part, shut down because of the number of under-age (and presumably trafficked) girls being advertised there.  I don't think that's the case regarding TER.
The second site that announced it was closing had been in financial difficulties for a while.  I can't be certain but I believe they went out of business because they had more expenses than revenues for too long, but used the legal issues that face "site #1" as an excuse.
As for P411 all I've heard is rumors.  I know of no credible info suggesting they are in trouble.
Where's the fire?

You know as well as anyone here that LE is active on this site...and nearly every other prostitution based site operating.

It has been easier to so a "sting" using the low hanging fruit (hence CL and BP being easy targets)...but to honestly think that each and every site being used for illegal activities isn't a target is short sighted.

Honestly...TER has been "THE" player in the prostitution world for quite a while now.  If someone decided that they wanted to make a big splash...easy enough to do that.

And if you do a google on P411 and FBI there was indeed an incident (I posted the link the other day).  Same would be true for any screening service out there.

The key has always and will always be "follow the money".  As long as sites like TER keep their focus on the fantasy review game...all should (and could) be OK.  But if it becomes more of a mall creating pandering issues (and the ad boards are already here and have been in various forms) then eventually things tend to get sloppy.  

It's a game of whack a mole...and others will take the places of those whacked.  Prostitution isn't going anywhere...other than perhaps on a different URL.

Posted By: inicky46
Two of the incidents you cite are not part of any trend.  The "other review site that was shut down by the Feds" was, in large part, shut down because of the number of under-age (and presumably trafficked) girls being advertised there.  I don't think that's the case regarding TER.  
 The second site that announced it was closing had been in financial difficulties for a while.  I can't be certain but I believe they went out of business because they had more expenses than revenues for too long, but used the legal issues that face "site #1" as an excuse.  
 As for P411 all I've heard is rumors.  I know of no credible info suggesting they are in trouble.  
 Where's the fire?

What I did say was that TER was less likely to be a target for running ads for underaged or trafficked girls.  I still believe the hysteria over what happened in SF is overblown in terms of the national picture.
Anyway, if things get too bad I'll just move to Costa Rica.  TER is rather redundant there.  Unless TER stands for Tica Erotic Resort.

If you keep up with the news, you'll see that "trafficking" and "underage prostitution" are merely excuses to shut down sites like these. Relative to the numbers of adult consensual participants, there are very few "children" involved. And those who are are typically 17 years old. There is a very rabid set of anti porn and anti prostitution activists who will stop at nothing to get every last vagina under control.

But I doubt anyone will be shutting TER down in the foreseeable future.  And, as I said in an earlier post, I'll bet LE finds this place useful for research and would hate to see it closed down.  And, to repeat myself, I think TER is better at keeping verboten advertisers off this site.

zelig1054 reads

The recent Urban Institute study makes it clear that most of the under-age sex workers are runaways. Most of them seem to have fled an abusive situation, and they turn to sex work to support themselves. They may be abused by pimps as sex workers, but they don't go back home because their situation would be even worse at home.  

In fact, most of the pimps aren't interested in underage girls because it puts them into much more legal jeopardy.

Based on the numbers reported press releases about the SF area bust, I think there is a good chance that none of the recovered "victims" were actually victims of sex trafficking.

Exactly.  This is a scary area where the extreme left and the extreme right find common ground.

Posted By: Dr Who revived
You know as well as anyone here that LE is active on this site...and nearly every other prostitution based site operating.  
   
 It has been easier to so a "sting" using the low hanging fruit (hence CL and BP being easy targets)...but to honestly think that each and every site being used for illegal activities isn't a target is short sighted.  
Stings that use people verified on P411 and other services are a far cry from the sites themselves being shut down.  How would the FBI shut down a site hosted and run from Canada?
Honestly...TER has been "THE" player in the prostitution world for quite a while now.  If someone decided that they wanted to make a big splash...easy enough to do that.
Easy?  How is it "easy" for zealous law enforcement to take down a site hosted and run in Amsterdam?

It doesn't matter what the size of the target is.  There are lots of websites in the US people from abroad would like taken down but it's not happening because what they do is legally OK in the U.S.

Do you need to be careful of responding to ads on ANY escorting site of any size?  Of course, but that is why the mantra has always been to see well-reviewed providers where you can tell the set of reviews looks legit, or you've been seeing a name come up for a while.
 
Personally I think the tide against federal law enforcement overreach in the U.S. is growing, and that will have impact going forward in the next few years..

As was wit with the shutting down of casino sites (back in 2011) not located in the States.

Same as shutting down a site run in Amsterdam.  If there is illegal monies running through the wires...just do the math.  And of course the argument is there is "nothing illegal happening on TER..or other review sites".  Seems like that was/is the argument for gaming as well.

I also disagree that the "low hanging fruit" isn't a likely target.  Seems like CL was taken down a few years back and seems like BP is next.  And in those cases there was nothing more than what you see on ad pages here.

I hope you're right and that Federal LE will move on to more important issues...but if they (as in the Feds) want to shut down P411...TER...Eros and so on...it won't be a difficult task.

But since prostitution isn't going anywhere...others will pop up in short order.

As I said earlier...it's whack a mole.

Posted By: SirWilliam00
Posted By: Dr Who revived
You know as well as anyone here that LE is active on this site...and nearly every other prostitution based site operating.  
     
  It has been easier to so a "sting" using the low hanging fruit (hence CL and BP being easy targets)...but to honestly think that each and every site being used for illegal activities isn't a target is short sighted.  
 
   
 Stings that use people verified on P411 and other services are a far cry from the sites themselves being shut down.  How would the FBI shut down a site hosted and run from Canada?  
   
Honestly...TER has been "THE" player in the prostitution world for quite a while now.  If someone decided that they wanted to make a big splash...easy enough to do that.
   
 Easy?  How is it "easy" for zealous law enforcement to take down a site hosted and run in Amsterdam?  
   
 It doesn't matter what the size of the target is.  There are lots of websites in the US people from abroad would like taken down but it's not happening because what they do is legally OK in the U.S.  
   
 Do you need to be careful of responding to ads on ANY escorting site of any size?  Of course, but that is why the mantra has always been to see well-reviewed providers where you can tell the set of reviews looks legit, or you've been seeing a name come up for a while.  
   
 Personally I think the tide against federal law enforcement overreach in the U.S. is growing, and that will have impact going forward in the next few years...  
 

CL is still in business but simply changed their model.  You can still find pros there if you know how to look. As for BP, it's all well and good to assert that "it seems BP is next." But it has yet to happen.

It's whack a mole.

And if other sites are shut down...more will take their places.

Pandora's box is open.

Too much money to be made...so it'll just take a better mouse.

Posted By: inicky46
CL is still in business but simply changed their model.  You can still find pros there if you know how to look. As for BP, it's all well and good to assert that "it seems BP is next." But it has yet to happen.

When you said:

Personally I think the tide against federal law enforcement overreach in the U.S. is growing, and that will have impact going forward in the next few years...  

I'm pretty sure you're right. The zealots can muster a lot of pressure though, and a week or two of bust in'-down-the-doors enforcement usually placates them.

The zealots yell, "Do something!"

The communities say, "Yeah, somebody outta do something."

The local lawmen go on a tear and arrest some folks, stage a photo op, swagger out and beam: "See? We DID something!"

Then everything dies down and things get back to normal until the next time.

JackDunphy765 reads

Lets be honest. We dont know exactly why those sites were shutdown and we will likely never know to a 100% certitude.

If the Feds want TER shutdown, they will get it shutdown. They will "find" a way if there is not a legitimate means to do so, if they so desire.

True, there may not be a fire YET, but I think there is ample amount of smoke to suggest a fire may not be all that far away. lol

As for TER being able to be shut down by any US LE group I seriously doubt it, though I expect TER management is being as careful as they can and not tempting fate.  Keep in mind it would have to be at the Federal level and I just don't see that happening for a lot of reasons.

I believe it was back in 2008 when Eliot Spitzer got outed for his "unusual" personal expenses while he was in office as Governor of NY. For about 6 months things were HOT everywhere in the NYC adult entertainment world. Well known clubs were getting shut down left and right and arrests skyrocketed as a response to the "outrage" over Spitzer's activities.

 Eventually it quieted down and things got back to normal--(new adult entertainment enterprises were formed---although much more "underground" than before.)

 I guarantee the same type of thing will happen here regarding Fed activity---in time it'll blow over and it'll be business as usual. After all---the politicians have to bust their nut SOMEWHERE LOL!!

I think that any good government wants to keep the door open to any perceived crime where said government can glean a profit.

I recently tried to switch my domain names and was circumvented for a period of 60 days while the information is passed to the ICANN agency. (I looked into it, apparently there are new regulations for domain names in place).  

WTF is this. This did occur just a year or so ago when I did the same thing. Should I be paranoid?  

I am looking for a local DC lawyer to help with advise; But welcome all comments. Please PM me in response.  

Thanks so much,

Snow

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