like drinking and driving.
It can be done, but at what cost to society?
Who among us can honestly say that our emotions have not gotten entangled while hobbying? Certainly not I, and I have paid the price with a broken heart.
Yet, I get right back up on that horse and ride again. The alternative is just too scary to imagine.
I've been seeing the same provider (5 times in three months). Everything's been great except one thing: no DFK. Hell, I hardly even get a peck on the lips. When I head in that direction, her head moves and I get to kiss her cheek. Yes, I go the extra mile as far as mouthwash and breath mints. I was hoping that as time went on, this might change. Recently I got VIP access on TER, and her other reviews do indeed mention DFK, apparently a lot with some customers. You can imagine how I felt. I emailed her a short note saying, "Do you think that on my next appointment I might have the priviledge of DFK? I'm beginning to feel left out." So far (two days), no response. I'm contemplating emailing her in a couple of days to say I'm won't be back due to her indifference in not responding to a regular client and for not giving me a service she gives to others. The big bugaboo? I'm crazy about her otherwise, and could probably learn to live with the different treatment. Any insights?
-- Modified on 10/28/2007 11:38:14 AM
and expecting different results is not advised.
YMMV may be in effect. 
However.....
Sometimes we just click with another, but there is just one thing missing to make it totally awesome. (That almost sounds like being married, doesn't it.)
If one is married and our mate doesn't provide something in the bedroom even after it is discussed, many times one goes elsewhere to get what is missing. Sometimes it may as simple as a certain kiss, or it may be being tied up in an Hobbit costume and having her speak Elvish.
There are many beautiful and winsome ladies willing to deeply kiss and you click with them. I am sure you can have fun trying one after another till you find one that provides that missing feeling.
More advice..... I do suggest not contacting her to tell her you won't be seeing her. She will get the message without it, and you won't be burning a bridge behind you. You never know, one day she may call you and change her mind when work is slow.
Cognitive Dissident
You should not be surprised to find wide variances on this issue.
In my own experience, I have met providers who love to DFK right away, another ATF of mine for over 15 years is quite clear with me: No DFK.
Of course I still floss, brush and rinse with the most expensive products out there (some providers have told me they're very effective too.) I use breath drops that can remove varnish.
I can only surmise that something chemical on a very poorly understood level of science is going on.
Have you met some providers who do like to DFK with you? If so, you can take some solace in the old saw: It's not you, it's her.
The truth is that this is the only provider I have seen. I guess I will try another and hope for better results. The trouble is, I have a certain emotional investment in this woman (I know, I know) that I would hate to lose. We'll see.
-- Modified on 10/28/2007 11:38:37 AM
In "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"
Jack Nicholson as R.P. McMurphy: "What are you doin' here? You oughta be out in a convertible bird-doggin' chicks and bangin' beaver."
Tangentially: I loved the line by Nicholson when he returns from the shock treatments. . .
"They was giving me ten thousand watts a day, you know, and I'm hot to trot! The next woman takes me on's gonna light up like a pinball machine and pay off in silver dollars!
On edit: typos
-- Modified on 7/20/2006 11:38:08 PM
This is your only provider. If I may be so bold to assert: I think you have a "thing" for her. No shame in that by the way. Been there and done that. (In fact, doing it now.)
But, if the provider has picked up on this (and never underestimate the intuitive powers of a woman, especially a provider) then her refusal to kiss may in fact be a deliberate step to avoid having you (as well as her) from becoming carried away.
In other words, it's not that she is offended, quite the contrary in fact.
Just a theory of course.
You made my post before I could Mr Fisher.
It is entirely possible that the lady has sensed is emotional attachment, and to keep the intimacy from getting to the place where she would have to stop seeing him altogether she could be holding back on that act.
To the original poster:
For the idea of being on the less than joyful side of YMMV, it happens. It sounds to me like your problem is less that she doesn't kiss you, but more that she does someone else.
Perhaps you have built certain feelings for her, and you want them reciprocated, but to your mind if she treats others, in a way you have decided is "better" then that must mean you are somehow being "shunned".
If you enjoyed her enough to see her five times in three months, and to have emotions invested, then all that really changed is you found out...nothing else did.
Here is a sad truth, you may never be any lady's ATF client. You may be a liked client, but not one that she considers her "favorite". From what you said about the email you did send her and the email you say you want to send, it sounds a bit like a weak ultimatum...either kiss me or won't see you again...the problem with that, that I have, is you say you would be ok with the difference because you are "crazy" aboput her...so why mention it unless you are simply trying to force her hand...or lips as the case may be?
You must not be as "crazy" about her as you think, or you would respect her decision and not try and make her do what you say you can live without, just because that's what you want, and you are jealous someone else is getting it. if she doesn't want to, and you do, simply move on, don't attempt to make her do something it seems obvious from your post she doesn't want to do. If you try and kiss her and she turns her head, she doesn't want to.
If DFK is that important to you, find someone that will, if it's not, why play any games about not seeing her again because she doesn't treat you like she does some others?
Here's the thing, for whatever reason (and she is the only one that knows why) she doesn't want to kiss you like that...you can force the issue, and she may accede to your wishes, but if she is only doing so because you demanded it...don't expect the rest of the appointment to go as well as your previous appointments have. She could actually resent you forcing the issue, and if she does, it could be reflected in her performance of the rest of the activities.
To Miss Goddess:
You have confused me again...you keep doing that.
In many posts you have said that a provider isn't a girlfriend or SO, but in your reply here you twice compare the three as if they are somehow equal. I would think since he has admitted having an "emotional investemnt" in this lady the last thing he needs to do is think of what he would expect with a GF or SO, and apply it to her. It seems to me he is jealous of the clients she does kiss, and is now trying to make her treat him as she does those others, jealousy and emotional attachment are already dangerous in this business, to then suggest he think in terms of what he would want from a GF or SO when applying his desires of activity with her? That seems like advice not just to play with fire but to self immolate.
Then again I may be completely wrong...I often am, and I am a self-proclaimed idiot so what I understand is limited at best.
and are probably right on the mark with your comments. I will clarify one thing, however. By "emotional investment," I mean nothing more than the effort anyone would take in the course of five visits to get the know the woman as a person, to find out things about her life (to the extent possible), to kid around with her; in short, to develop some minute level of a relationship that is not based entirely on sex. "Crazy about her" may have been too strong a term, but there was certainly something that kept me coming back. And yes, she did know that she was the only provider I had been with, but I seriously doubt that she held out on DFK to keep me from getting too involved. I thank you guys for taking all the time to respond with your well thought-out comments.
-- Modified on 10/28/2007 11:39:16 AM
Please read my post again,
A provider clearly is not a girlfriend and/or an SO. But, she is supposed to provide sexual service on par with a girlfriend or an SO, hence the term GFE. He should DEFINITELY expect kisses from every woman he's with, whether it's a provider or a girlfriend..or an SO.
As to his feelings, I don't think he's as much "jealous" of the other clients, as he's missing that part of the intimate/sexual interaction from the provider. What he SHOULD NOT do, is expect a provider to offer the same EMOTIONAL interaction as a girlfriend or an SO. Hence, he needs to back off on his "emotional investment." There is a vast difference between pure physical interaction and interaction that contains both physical and emotional activity. Kissing is intimate, yes, but it's very physical. A professional provider should either offer kisses to everyone [as listed in her profile,] or, she should perform at a lesser level and omit that specific activity. It's even a category offered in each provider's TER profile. And hobbyists who have ZERO "emotional investment" in providers still expect to be kissed, mainly because it's physically exciting and feels very good.
In this case, you're not a self-proclaimed idiot, but you are equivocating sex with emotions. As many people do.
The Love Goddess
actually...you can't tell me what I proclaim myself or not. *grin*
I have read your post a number of times Hell, I'll even quote it for ya...
"This is a good illustration of why we are not machines, and that clients do feel emotional about this endeavor. But you need to make a choice here, amolatinas. Do you want to be around her and receive treatment that you wouldn't put up with otherwise? Would you have a GF or an SO who didn't kiss you? And would you be "crazy" about such a person?"
Clients get emotional; would you have a SO or GF that didn't kiss you....
"Please do not let this woman become an unresolved issue, it's not worth it. You'd never put up with dating a girl who had it a policy not to kiss you, would you?"
You need closure; you wouldn't date someone that didn't kiss you.
"When I read about providers who do not kiss, I wonder how they must feel inside when providing. It's almost as if they go into depersonalization mode. Their bodies are there, for hire, but their souls are elsewhere. Very, very sad in some way. I am not saying you have to love everyone, or even be attracted to everyone..."
Feelings of the provider that doesn't kiss; it being depersonalised; their souls aren't in it.
Though points for second guessing the feelings of a third party that wasn't even here for you to ask why she does or doesn't do certain things...and that wasn't even paraphrased by the original poster as to what she may have as her reasons why...and of course the points for bringing the lady's feelings into it.
Let me see if I understood your post to me...I am the one that equated sex and emotion?
Also, I was unaware of him stating she was GFE and had to do what a GF or SO would do...or that YMMV was not allowed, that providers must do everything the same for all clients, and if they don't do something with one then they must not do it with any....and that wouldn't make it depersonalised, when everything is done with everyone the same?
I also missed where you told him to back off his emotional investment, though I did see where you said you understood how he felt when he found out she was kissing other clients.
-- Modified on 7/21/2006 5:26:02 PM
like drinking and driving.
It can be done, but at what cost to society?
Who among us can honestly say that our emotions have not gotten entangled while hobbying? Certainly not I, and I have paid the price with a broken heart.
Yet, I get right back up on that horse and ride again. The alternative is just too scary to imagine.
plsss help me up my asss
Dear Web Terrorist,
It is apparent to me that I am not expressing myself clearly...at least not to you. At this point, I think amolatinas got what he needed from all the replies, mine included; however, it seems I have provided you with a confusing answer.
As to what providers should and shouldn't do, it boils down to the following opinion [of mine, granted:] Yes, I think all providers should kiss, because it's part of a "normative sexual repertoire." No YMMV on that one, in my book. It approximates a GFE experience and yes, I do think all providers should strive for providing just that. I am biased that way, but apparently so are TER members, according to a poll asking the question a while ago. To a majority of individuals out there, providers or not, hobbyists, teenagers, etc., kissing is normal behavior and a prelude to the sex act itself. Yes, there are providers who do not kiss, but I view them as engaging in depersonalized behavior. Now it's possible that they enjoy intercourse without kissing, but I have a hard time believing that.
As to the issue of equating sex and emotion, I believe there is a big difference between appearing "depersonalized" and having an "emotional investment." Providers don't have to have "emotional investments" in their clients, but they should not appear as if they are depersonalized. Also, in my previous post, I am speculating as to how non-kissing providers feel. "It's ALMOST as if they go into depersonalization mode." I am not saying they are depersonalized. But yes, I am speculating what goes on inside them.
Now, as you hypthesize as to my belief "that providers must do everything the same for all clients, and if they don't do something with one then they must not do it with any....and that wouldn't make it depersonalised, when everything is done with everyone the same?"
The answer to that, in my opinion would be yes, they should behave in a consistent manner according to their profile. If it says that they kiss - with or without open mouth - they should kiss everyone. As to if it would make it depersonalized for the provider - no, not more than having vaginal intercourse with everyone. If kissing is on the menu, it should be offered to everyone. Would it make it depersonalized for the hobbyist? No more than expecting a certain behavior - and obtaining it, as planned for.
My opinion is also that it could enhance the experience of his particular provider if she kissed amolatinas. I have no idea why she's not doing it, but plenty of hobbyists voiced some good and interesting reasons.
When I discuss emotion in this case, I am talking about not appearing as a machine. There is a big difference between being and feeling like an automaton, and being in love, or having an "emotional investment." To that extent, no, I am not equating sex and emotion - or rather, I am not equating sex and "emotional investment." And I should have used that term, rather than just calling it "emotion."
Finally, there are many nuances to a response. As we do them only in writing here, many details are missed or perhaps not expressed properly. Also, the space is limited and not completely conducive to having in depth discussions. When posters ask questions, oftentimes you have to infer what they mean or what's behind the posting. I believe we are fortunate enough to process issues as deeply as we do. If this were a column in a magazine or newspaper, imagine the small amount of space we'd have. It's good to refine and clarify, but there will always be those who will not be satisfied or who want more or perhaps a different answer. In this case, this one will have to do - at least from me.
Thank you,
the Love Goddess
I disagree. In my opinion if you have a provider who will not kiss you then you only have a methodical device and if you can be satisfied with that you might as well go to a AMP for all your love.
Dear amolatinas,
Your peers on this board have given you excellent and very respectful advice. As to the provider, we have no idea what goes on in her head. It may be someting "chemical," as was expressed above, or she may have some cognitive distortions [read 'weird ideas'] about why she shouldn't kiss you in particular.
Yes, I absolutely can imagine how you felt when reading the VIP reviews. This is a good illustration of why we are not machines, and that clients do feel emotional about this endeavor. But you need to make a choice here, amolatinas. Do you want to be around her and receive treatment that you wouldn't put up with otherwise? Would you have a GF or an SO who didn't kiss you? And would you be "crazy" about such a person? Kissing is an intimate act, but unless you are strictly focused on genital release, a sexual experience without kissing seems a very truncated one.
When I read about providers who do not kiss, I wonder how they must feel inside when providing. It's almost as if they go into depersonalization mode. Their bodies are there, for hire, but their souls are elsewhere. Very, very sad in some way. I am not saying you have to love everyone, or even be attracted to everyone, but if you at least attempt to engage your entire body, you may actually derive some very unexpected pleasure out of the encounter. I'd even be so bold as to say that maybe this provider is missing something in not kissing you! Maybe you're a great kisser and she'd have loads of 'bonus fun' in puckering up!
I do believe you have to make your choice here. It's perfectly fine that you sent her an email. At least you got the question off your chest. The fact that she's not responding means something [unless she's a poor email responder in general, and it takes her days to hit the reply button.]
Now, if you think it resolves the issue in your head, go ahead and send her a final missive. She may not care, but at least you'll get some closure. And then stick by your decision. Please do not let this woman become an unresolved issue, it's not worth it. You'd never put up with dating a girl who had it a policy not to kiss you, would you?
Do kiss and tell...with someone else,
the Love Goddess
-- Modified on 7/20/2006 9:24:22 PM
-- Modified on 10/28/2007 11:38:58 AM
Don't believe everything you read in a review. There have been many providers who read about things in reviews of their services that they claim they didn't or wouldn't do. Hobbyists like to embellish a little, from time to time. That might explain why some seem to be getting something you're not.