My marriage has been spotted slipping over the event horizon to be sucked inextricably into a black hole. Betcha a bunch of guys on this 60&Over board have gone down those tubes. The one small ray of sunshine is that we do not live in a community property state. The one large dump of stupidity is that I put our house and almost all of MY stocks, bonds, and bank accounts into our joint names. Youngest of three kids is in college. Wife works and earns a fraction of what I do. Wondering if you might have any advice re:
(1) My biggest fear is that the lawyer who I hire will take my money and then do little or no work, letting my soon-to-be-ex's lawyer pick my carcass clean. How did you find your lawyer (assuming s/he did a good job!)?
(2) Is it inevitable that wife's lawyer will pore over the last several years of my individual bank and credit card statements? I do have a separate credit card, and ONE individual bank account.
(3) What other giant monsters are waiting to bite my ass? (Not worried about cell phone records.)
Feel free to PM if for any reason you think it imprudent to post any specific advice. Thanks
Sorry to hear about your situation. I am not an expert, but have some experience. Lawyers are an interesting group, expect to pay more per hour than whatever it is you are thinking...that is just inevitable if you want a quality attorney. If possible, get a recommendation. The attorney, during your initial meeting, will provide a roadmap for how things SHOULD go. That being said, expect some unexpected turns. Unless she is out to crucify you, your wife's attorney should be able to provide a fairly reasonable range for what she should expect to get from you. How long you were married, how much she makes, and a few other factors will go into the equation for determining a fair settlement. The real danger spot for you is your ex's anger. If she is under control, and hears her attorney, your attorney should be able to bring the settlement in within the range of his original estimate.
You will exchange numbers with your ex (through attorneys) that stipulate to known locations and dollar amounts of wealth held individually in each of your names, as well as jointly. This is where you and she disclose what you have and what you know about. Another danger spot is if she thinks you are hiding money/assets. If she does, she, like most, will spend every available dollar to find it (even if it means larger fees later on). If you are hiding it, make sure there is no paper trail. Past bank and credit card statements are routinely asked for, but the relevant numbers are on tax returns. The credit card and bank statements just provide a more complete picture regarding wealth and any possible diminution of assets. Good luck!
for many years?
more like irrelevant.
The big question is how long have you been married?
In my state (Mass.) if you are married for 20 years or more, the community property issue is moot as she is entitled to 50%, come what may. Any and all financial records are going to be on the table, and you had better be prepared to pony up the information as it will be very bad for you in front of the judge should you be caught trying to hide any assets. Divorce lawyers often bring in what they call forensic accountants to do a search for assets. My ex did, for example. Fortunately, I had put all my cards on the table.
She is also entitled to alimony based on what you can pay and her needs. In my case it is about 15% of my earnings.
I had to pay 100% of kids' expenses, but I retained custody of them.
Here's a suggestion: If you do not already have one, see a family psychologist with a history of working with divorced couples. I did and was glad I did if for no other reason, it helped keep my mind centered. Lawyers are generally lousy at bedside manner.
I wish you luck in dealing with this. It can go on for up to two years or more during which time your life is in limbo
my state. Not YET knowing a damn thing about this damnable process, I thought maybe the fact that wife refused sex would be useful. Maybe irrelevant is good since I have been warned not to make her angry....
This is something to ask your lawyer about. It was not an issue in my case (neither of us wanted to make it so, but both of us were guilty), and in the other cases it was irrelevant, although in a couple the wife was disappointed that the court didn't put the husband in irons. But states and situations may vary. Do your due diligence in finding a lawyer, reconcile to the fact that it will probably cost you a bundle but you will emerge intact, but if you keep cool and non-contentious that will help. Again, children are a much bigger concern for the courts than "infidelities."
not relevant unless you tried and tried to get her to marriage counseling. There are always avenues to take before cheating. Besides, in today's world, cheating is just a way to get a quicker divorce (ours still took 18 months). Very seldom has much to do with division of assets. Court may punish you, but probably not much. Also, you will probably settle in mediation--no one wants to pay the expenses of going to court.
In my divorce many years ago, my lawyer said "both parties can expect their standards of living to fall initially, but depending on age, income and circumstances recovery is possible." Neither lawyers nor the govt have any interest in putting people into poverty, assuming you have honest representation. Also, issues of infidelity are not as serious as you might think -- if there are children involved, esp if they are minors, the Court's primary interest is protection and support for the children. I know of cases where the wife turned up some nasty stuff about the husband (affairs, etc) but the Court was relatively uninterested in that, although there was some restitution for estimated $$$ spent on "other women." In my case, ex and I did our best to try to keep it civil but there were occasionally angry times, so we learned to let the lawyers wrangle and we tried to stay out of it, except for the final decisions. Once we didn't have children, money and sex to argue about any longer, we found we could be quite cordial and today we are good friends. That's not possible for every couple, your situation may be quite different. And I can only say that my children, both by my ex-wife and second marriage are all grateful that we didn't keep battling, and now get along. So these are perhaps side issues to the legal ones but nevertheless important.
Do you have an electronic toll system where you live? In Illinois one of the first things a divorce lawyer wants is the husbands I-pass records. That can show unusual trips and you might have to explain why you were in an unusual place.
Emails can be a problem. You may have deleted them, but they live on. Hopefully you have an unknown throw away email.
Don't have an emotional attachment to things. My FIL has done a lot of divorces. He laughs that his country club membership was paid for by fights over pick up trucks and photo albums. Two lawyers sitting there with the meters running.
Check for any tracks back to adult sites or others like it. Ever use a credit card for those sites? If you are not a community property state things like hookers can be used for leverage.
That's what I got
...Because that's exactly the kind of lawyer you need! And the biggest assholes among divorce attorneys are women divorce attorneys. Get yourself a woman lawyer (with recommendations). But if the divorce is proceeding amicably, you can call off the dogs.
Getting to top notch divorce lawyer. He/she will answer your other questions better than anyone here. Ask your divorced friends. Ask your lawyer friends for recommendations. Does you community generate any ranking lists? In my city there is a magazine that polls lawyers about other lawyers in various specialties.
Its not necessarily bad if your wife gets a good one too. I got one of the top lawyers in my city, and he told me the biggest problems he had were bad lawyers on the other side who didn't know what was reasonable. He told me when both sides have good lawyers, the lawyers can usually figure out pretty quickly what's about right for the big issues (asset division etc). The challenge is then to get the clients to accept that. But when one side has a bad lawyer, its a struggle to even get the other lawyer to accept whats reasonable, not to mention the client.
divorce is the screwing you get for the screwing you got. Been there, got that.
LLAP,
Swim
don't they teach Divorce? Now that would be a Life Skill that more people would use than apparently use nutrition.
a lot of good advise, especially about a good lawyer which you need to get, works better with another good lawyer which you should not be afraid your ex will get............especially if you are in community property State.
Mine is a community property state so negotiations were minimal, formulas by the state etc., therefore, I found the best way to mitigate expenses was to reduce the Lawyer fees............we got a Mediator and all of us were in one office where the Mediator went back and forth working out a deal which allowed for a settlement not a trial which cut the expenses down a lot. It took 12 hours, but I wish we would have done it sooner vs. later but the attorneys needed to gather the data for the negotiations/settlement.
Both sides need to understand the lawyers have meters which run all the time, my ex could not understand that and paid dearly for her lawyers- she went thru three.
Another possible tip is: don't forget about taxes............what one must give to the other may have positive tax benefits to you and she may have to take it as income, there are financial planners which specialize in divorce- several hours with them may be valuable.
I settled, fairly amicably- she feels she got screwed, the tough part now is that she keeps coming back to the well wanting stuff and more $, it is tough dealing with the Mother of my children who I am now raising.
1) As to lawyer...mine was ok, even tried to talk me out of giving so much at mediation. Her first lawyer was a churner...pure and simple...In the temporary support hearing, I had to fork out $25k upfront to her lawyer...gone before we got out the door. I felt like both lawyers waited until we were about broke and then we suddenly settled...go figure.
2) Yes, I had to supply 10 years of bank statements and credit card statements-even though she could have gotten them herself. Also, I had a system that never showed where the money came from. I worked a couple of side jobs fairly regularly and these checks were cashed and put into my pocket..You will have to disclose those separate ones too.
3) Don't understand the difference between community property and non, but in SC she is entitled to half of the marital assets-fortunately, HER retirement plan was the bulk of our assets, so technically she should have paid me (you should have seen her head explode when that concept was explained to her-even her first lawyer didn't understand it). As to alimony, I think its pretty simple. Add your two salaries and divide by 2. Subtract her salary from that number. The difference is about what you should be paying in alimony. Once you retire, you have to go back to court to get it reduced. We horse traded so she didn't want alimony, just a (LARGE) portion of my retirement account. I was happy to oblige, but little did I know she was already living with someone and got married right after the last check was signed, so I wouldn't have had to pay alimony long.
Mine was really tough because my wife was soooooo angry and never has been a forgiving person. Don't open with too fair an offer, it will most certainly be met with rejection. We never made it to court, settled at mediation.
sometimes a little humor and commonality can take the sting out of things.
"We ALL have our own self-made purgatories, mine can be no worse than someone else's..."
It's really too bad that seemingly, once good people can be SO nasty and hateful. Life is way too short for that kind of attitude. I just hope that today's generation looks for and finds the right qualities in their spouse or partner.
But, try to do a lot of research on your own. I have two sisters who went through a divorce. One was a doctor, and the other was married to a doctor. As you might expect, the one who was the doctor got totally screwed because she had NO time to do any research. The other, of course, dug deep into his "everything" and took much more than she deserved.
... "Well, I got nowhere else to go. The ex-wife took the whole damn planet in the divorce. All I got left is my bones.
It's probably too late to hide assets. It's easy for the courts to search.
A buddy's wife tried hidding an account but it was found & the judge was POd.
I sold my gun collection (premaritial asset) & put the money in a joint account with my buddy... his name first so it wouldn't come up in a search... he had an accident, could not pay medical bills & my money was gone. I was worried about losing a little interest. DUMB!! Worry about protecting your PRINCIPAL. I'd have had money to work with IF I'd kept it in cash (a coffee can in my pile of stuff in Mom & Dad's basement.)
Old fashoned paper savings bonds only show up when they are purchased & when they are redeemed... but unless you have some stashed, it's too late to buy them now.
Immediately double your weekly pocket cash & stash the excess... somewhere other than your sock drawer. Keep it in CASH. Starting now, it will only be a small amount... but it'll be liquid.
A buddy worked while his wife got her advanced degree. She got a good job but they were still always hand to mouth. Her parents never liked Charlie. He discovered his soon to be ex had been sending every 4th pay check to her mother. After the divorce, ex bought a house, cash down payment. Couldn't prove it... It had been going on since she got her good job, some 3-4 years...
Secure deeds & valueables knowing they will have to be produced for the court.
A buddy was found in contempt for not producing tax records... given 24 hours to produce them or go to jail.
They'd meet for counciling then went for coffee, ended up returning to the house each time... just to talk. He was fooled into thinking they were cordial, I wondrer ifthere was any sex going on, though he denied it at the time... it's not a streeth. When he was "in the bathroom", she had systematically stuffed the tax envolupes each time she returned to the house. He brought the stuffed envolupes into court & the newspaper dates matched. The judge was not as dumb as she thought & realized she had information only possible from the tax returmns which meant she had them. Judge was not amused.
Judge should have put her in jail for contempt, but all she got was a scolding.
Years ago, I knew a cop... a Lt... was arrested in the neighboring town after a fight with his GF / she said ex-GF. Sure enough he was armed with his Off Duty gun. She took out a restraining order & he was not permitted to carry except on duty. With today's laws, he'd have been fired & his carreer ended.
With this knowledge, when I got divorced, I took my remaining guns to a buddy's shop. He was to clean them (excuse for bringing them in) & store them in his safe. They had to be entered into & out of his Federal bound book & I had to do the records check & waiting period to get my own guns back... over a year later. But I wanted to be one step ahead of my ex if she's made a false claim. As it turned out, I saw the ex when I picked up the last of my stuff from her house (we each had a witness) and our court dates.
When a hunting buddy was getting divorced... he & his son emptied his gun safe & I took temporary custody. (There was LOTS of room in my safe then!) We wrote a letter to that effect, listed them all by SN. Dated it & all of us signed & was notarized. I kept a copy & he kept a copy. Sure enough, she claimed he'd threatened her with a gun. He opened his safe for the cop who responded & showed him the letter dated months earlier. I actually had to refuse to give his guns back a couple of times before the divorce was final because he wanted to go hunting. (I said I'd give them back but I was not going to be digging them out of the back & keeping a log... opening the safe storage into question.) In the end, I had to go to court to testify, brought the letter... she should have been arrested for making a false Police report. The son was under his Mother's influence by then & lied... but aknowledged his signature in court. But you know that didn't happen.
This was an attempt to reopen the settlement by claiming it was signed under duress. Do not underestimate greed.
I will add, no one ever gets what they think they should get, or "deserve". The lawyers make money by keeping things stirred up. In the end, it's about what each of you are willing to "settle for" in order to move on. Try to not cause hate & discord.
... if possible, I recommend hiring a divorce mediator. Much cheaper, less acrimonious and when you get close to an agreement you can have a solid divorce lawyer review and amend the final deal.
Not for everyone but it worked well for me.
through the lawyers... there wasn't much to fight over. We had no children, thank heavens! It took another year to complete the divorce.