I'm married and I've advanced to the next level with more than one of my atfs. It adds considerably to the "relationship" for me and its one of the things that keeps me coming back. If it was just a business relationship, then I would have quit this hobby a long time ago. The bottom line is that you can have it anyway you want, just find the right provider.
So why is it providers in the US can't relax if they find they like a "client"? When I go south of the boarder it's a given, if a girl likes you, she'll go off the clock, hang with you, spend the night or even a few days and in some cases you only pay for her cab fare home, in others you pay a token amount (the equal of 1 hour together for an entire day or night). I laugh out loud when I read a girl trying to get $5k for an evening up here, but I digress...
Here it seems if a provider likes you (and the feeling it mutual) there's some big deal about "crossing the line" as if there's some code book that must be followed.
Girls, if you like a guy, why can't you just relax, go out with him, have a good time? Why are you so obsessed with the "clock" and crossing the line? Maybe you'll just have a few good dates (and some enjoyable sex with someone that you connect). Maybe it will become more. It doesn't have to be some life changing decision or some huge ethical dilema.
I'm writing this because there's someone whom I currently connect with. I'm not in love, neither is she but we have a thing and she's now even calling me if she hasn't heard from me in a while -and its not about the money. Yet, it's such a big deal for her to "cross the line." I'm not losing sleep over this. She's sweet, I'm a nice guy, if she wanted, I'd take her out, have a nice evening together, we'd have some geat sex (like we always do). So where exactly is the problem?
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. If you are so healthy, let her work out her issue and just be a friend and be available for her...if you want to. Without you going through what the ladies go through, what point is there in criticizing their concerns?
There was a thread a while ago where one woman thought a guy who she sees in public was really hot, and she would love to have sex with him. The problem was that she was wondering how to approach that she was a provider and that he would need to pay for a session with her in order to have sex with her. The thought of her having sex with him where she approached him, but him not paying her was totally foreign to her.
The problem is that some women in this business get it in their heads that whenever they have sex, there is money involved, so there can never be sex without money involved. This is plainly wrong, but happens in some cases.
I happen to think that some women need some "off the clock" sex/intimacy time to remain sane. If every single sexual encounter involves money, then they become just as incapable of intimacy as us men who pay for every single session..
I guess they just get so into the mentality that their pussy is worth money that it's very hard to concieve of using it without collecting.
I wasn't really looking for advice for my situation, I know the deal veeeery well, but I was wondering on a more general level why this symdrome exists here in the states. This was a good point.
I don't think all providers are about money. I'm not, and I can say that I always have a "client" that I turn into my personal sex toy. I don't have time to go out and date like any other normal person, all my male contacts are made thru the business. So, sometimes I find a guy that has all the qualities I enjoy in a man and, if he's single and available, I do make a connection off the clock if he feels in the same way towards me. Right now, I'm crossing the border with a guy I saw 3 times as client. He's awesome, I'm totally smitten with him and I know he is with me. But is not a relationship, nothing related with love...only lust. He was not the one crossing...I was. I mailed to him, after our 3rd business encounter last week and I explained how I felt and asked if he wanted to be my dick for pleasure. I told him I was not going to marry him...but that I wanted his body lol. He agreed and it has been fun. NSA fun.
...there is a beautiful young lady who needs love like the rest of us. I hope when you days are up, you can look back and truly say you had more than a couple of guys who made your head spin. It's fun and crazy, and so cool. Dive in.
If you are married, as I am, the line is an important one for both parties. The provider is a professional, and should be treated like one. You can be friendly, but you can't date. It is a relationship that can never advance to the next level.
I'm married and I've advanced to the next level with more than one of my atfs. It adds considerably to the "relationship" for me and its one of the things that keeps me coming back. If it was just a business relationship, then I would have quit this hobby a long time ago. The bottom line is that you can have it anyway you want, just find the right provider.
I'm married (very happily) and am in one of these type relationships with my ATF. It's not what I was looking for but when it happened, I couldn't stop it. I am relatively new to this hobby and am now wondering whether in ten years I will be like JULY, with multiple relationships like this one.
I call our current relationship a hybrid relationship -- initiated as business but prolonged by something more. I think that to try to define the relationship further will probably ruin it. So I just enjoy it for what it is and assume it will end at some point in the future, although I can't imagine it ending any time soon.
"When I go south of the boarder it's a given, if a girl likes you, she'll go off the clock, hang with you, spend..."
Difference between first and third world countries; and varying levels of education, sophistication, and market values in the free world. Plus, think of what a given woman's been exposed to, given her lesser sophistication and much more desperate needs! Probably sees any scraggly, limping type, full of sores, if he has a few bucks. I play in an entirely, much higher realm.
This is going down a different road but I just had to reply. My friend, you don't even know what a higher realm is until you spent some serious time in Brazil. Perhaps you think you're in a higher realm because you're spending big bucks on mercenary high priced ($600+ per hr) US call girls, but until you've had sex with a gorgeous young brazilian semipro girl who just turns tricks once in a while to help pay for school, who looks at you like you're a god, looks herself like a godess with the most perfect body you have ever seen, and fucks you like it was the first and last lay she would ever have doing things with her hips that you wouldn't dare dream about, you don't even know what sex is. Eeeeverything is on the menu, there is no clock it lasts for hours (or all night) and the words GFE don't begin to express the true enthusiasm they have. Sometimes, if you show them a really good time, they'll only ask for cab fare in the morning. I've been with the high priced US girls, they can't even touch what I'm talking about.
You've perhaps spent some time in the allies of Tijuana with some skanky unhealthy looking street girls to have the opinions you do, but, Grasshopper, you have much to learn about the higher realm.
I can't speak for others, but I'll let you know why I generally am skittish when it comes to overstepping boundaries or going to the "next level" with a client. When I first joined the hobby, I decided to strictly prohibit myself from dating clients on a personal level. I prefer to keep my personal and professional lives separate to some degree and I am fairly content with the personal life that I have already.
When a client and I have become close in the past, I would hang around a couple more hours (off the clock) and we'd chat on the phone occasionally. Sometimes we'd grab lunch or dinner. And then the gentlemen took advantage of that situation and felt they no longer had to see me professionally to remain in contact. I can understand us spending additional (non-intimate) time together because we do click so well and enjoy one another's company, but I met them as clients and expected them to keep up their end of things as well. And they didn't. One was notorious for scheduling professional visits, only to cancel later and then ask me out to lunch the following week. He mostly wanted attention and a friend, which is just fine, BUT I came here for more than that alone. I felt shafted and put an end to our personal outings.
Then the phonecalls became too much...leaving voicemails telling me every time they had a second away from their wives. They saw us as friends and expected the same benefits that were there previously when we dated professionally...but no, that's not what I'm interested in. I don't desire a friend with benefits or a boyfriend. And when I do, I'll look outside of the hobby for it. I'm not interested in an affair with a married man.
With some gentlemen, they seem like a lot of fun in a pro setting, but once removed from that they become too involved. Once those lines are blurred, things can become chaotic rather quickly. Feelings have developed on their end, resulting in my phone ringing at all hours, numerous emails sent to me throughout the day, and them pushing to become more personal than I am comfortable with. Some even became jealous of me seeing other clients. It surprised me how much a person could change once they stepped over that threshold into "personal friend" territory. I felt suffocated by some of the attention I received, and our interaction became strained and stressful. It's too dramatic, and that's not why I'm here. I enjoy my freedom and independence as a single, young woman and wish to keep things as they are.
Some of us maintain the boundaries carefully because we've been burnt in the past. I have had a couple of my guys pass over into "personal" friendship and value them greatly, but the dynamics of our relationships have also changed. They know this, respect this, and we get along fine as platonic friends.
Thanks for a thotful explanation of what my atf is probably going through with me. I'm guilty of all the things you've listed because she has let me get closer than some of her other clients. I also have learned some of what she needs from me as a client and I give her a lot of the things you've noted. It has been a learning process for me and quite a bit of give and take with my atf. I doubt that I could ever get into a platonic relationship with her, she is simply too hot in bed, but I have come to value her as a person more than I ever thot possible. It was good to hear from the other side of the story.....
I have a friend who is an artist. He loves his job and I love his work.
Can I ask him to go out to dinner? Sure Can I ask him to paint a picture for me? Sure, if I paid him If he offer to give me a discount? Sure, and I'd appreciate him Can he give me a painting for free? Sure, only if he wanted to Can I ask him to give me a painting for free?
Well, you get the picture... (pun intended)
Treat the providers like it's their job. If they choose to take you up on a dinner or some free time or discount, let them make that call. It's common courtesy and it seems that, like common sense, it sometimes lacks in people.
There is no rule book except what you would do in life outside the hobby. Do you ever ask your doctor friend out to dinner only to get him to write you up a prescription that you need?
Well, if you can take that atitude into the bedroom then you're a great candidate to date an ATF. I'm not. I never intended to step over any boundaries, but often it seemed that I was being invited to. Who decides how far I can go? I tried to leave the decision to my atfs, but they started complaining that I wasn't forceful enough. When I started getting too pushy and posessive, the reacted negatively. So its been a back and forth with frustration on both sides. Yes, it would be great if I could take the almost clinical perspective you suggest. At the same time, I doubt I would care as much about the person if I had such a cavalier atitude. We are talking about a business relationship that begins to morph into a personal one. Hard to know where to encourage intimacy and where to draw a hard boundary. I will say, when all is said and done, I am a better man for these oddly mixed up "relationships" that I've been in. I have great memories and after our "break-ups", we have ineivitably ended up being friends if only because we've been so close at one time.
Again, JULY seems to have walked the road I am now on. The "business relationship morphing into a personal one" is exactly the "hybrid" relationship that I described in my earlier response in another thread. (I wrote that prior to reading this thread.)
Like JULY, I do also feel I am "a better man for [this] oddly mixed up relationship." I am acutely aware of the need to avoid being pushy or possessive, yet I share his frustration over where to encourage intimacy and where to draw a boundary. Emotional stability is not exactly her forte. Nevertheless, as I said earlier, I accept what we have and don't try to define it. So far the relationship has lasted a year and shows no signs of waning.
I also share JULY's logical left-brain response to SINGER's "almost clinical perspective" as being admirable but unattainable. We are talking about a caring relationship, a connection, with another human being. It's the emotional RIGHT brain in action, baby. Most people that initially meet me (especially at my profession) would peg me as a left-brain type. But I am a fiercely emotional person, and my right brain wants no boundaries with my ATF right now. Yet the boundaries are there, partly because she is (I believe) protecting herself, and partly because I am married. As JCM once sang, "It hurts so good."
The analogy of seeing a doctor doesn't quite work because the doctor doesn't randomly meet someone she likes and then say, "hey, I have a strong urge treat you, I really want to do it but you'll have to pay me anyway."
Obviously, however, this does occur with provider-client relationships. She does want you and thoroughly enjoys it, yet expects money too?
Imaging dating a pro chef who invites you over for dinner and then expects you to pay for the meal because during the day "everyone else pays to eat my food."
I don't agree at all with the idea that if you start to see a provider socially, and its her desire as well, that you should then be paying her for her services.
If a provider gets to the point that she really wants to be with you, it should be free, OR MAYBE, we should start to charge them!
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