Geez, suddenly I feel like dropping all my ATFs.
-- Modified on 6/19/2005 10:14:16 PM
I created this account yesterday more than one month after I learned of Garrett's involvement with this lifestyle. I just chose whatever name that came to mind. No offense to anyone here, but I feel stunned and devastated. I have cried and cried over this. I paid for a one month membership just so I could know. I read each and every review. I drank myself into a stupor because I just can't handle this. I have run the gamut of my emotions. I am sure that I would have understood this better had he come out with it in the earliest stages of our relationship. I could have made sense of it and moved forward. I should never have found out after some random search on yahoo and google. Imagine how this killed me. In fact, had I done this search in early 2004, when our relationship began, I would have chosen to not get my heart involved at all. I would have kept him at a distance until I felt safe. Instead, I dove right in. I felt like I belonged, unlike several of my past relationships where I was treated like an unpaid whore.
I only want to be a part of an open, honest relationship with someone who loves and supports me right back. It hurts me because I was told by Garrett that he had suffered through a specific number of failed romances. Little did I know that it wasn't genuine romance. It was a concocted number he threw together to mask this. I even found evidence on his computer about some escort service. He told me a bold faced lie to explain what it meant. He told me he knew a girl in a particular city. I later reminded him, "Didn't you say you know someone who lives..." He acted like he could't recall. I learned yesterday exactly who that girl is, and she is someone he slept with through this site. I don't know who I am loving, and yet I foolishly want to love him. He told me that he was a different person than the person he turned out to be. I felt so happy and so safe for so many months with this man. It hurts me to realize that I got him only days after his last fling with whomever, like I got someone's leftovers. This impacts my self-worth as a woman. I am so insecure now. Before Garrett, I had saved myself for someone special for a number of years, if only because I didn't want to share my body with someone who I feel did not deserve me. That trust just isn't there anymore. I don't know how to rebuild it. I don't want to go to the doctor and have her find something. I want this to be gone. So men, make sure you know what you are doing when you choose to enter into a relationship post "hobby," and you choose to withhold your truth. It will only make her hurt as I am hurting once she realizes that she has given her heart away.
[Edited by moderator to remove photograph]
-- Modified on 6/19/2005 1:38:49 PM
Babe,
People enter into the 'hobby' for a variety of reasons and whether you can get past this indiscretion or not will frame the way you deal with men and people in general. Most people have active sex lives with their partners and of course many don't. I am sure he cares for you and if he didn't you probably would have never found out about this. To suggest that the women here have diseases is to only compound some of the ignorance of your post. In fact, he's safer here than with civilians because there is nothing but arrogance in the free world about sex, disease, testing etc. I don't know the dynamics of your relationship, but it was a bit tacky to out him here and besides this world is about anonymity and discretion. Whether you rebuild the relationship, this will not go away, nor will the lack of trust you feel unless you decide that it is worth it to you to do that.
This community will likely turn a deaf ear to the logic you used because you are being hurtful, condescending, and a bit more than naive about life, sex, relationships, and I dare say people. Move on, because character assassination on this or similar boards is pointless.
-- Modified on 6/19/2005 2:09:24 PM
-- Modified on 6/19/2005 8:37:41 PM
To take someone who uses a handle "babecandy" seriously? Not to mention this rant on a guy who hasn't posted a review since 2003, prior to said relationship?
My skeptic-dar is on high. If by some remote chance this is real, take it off-line and deal with the guy directly for god's sake. Common sense should tell you, you won't achieve anything by posting to an escort board.
Who has the notion to google their boyfriends name ?
If you have to keep someone on a leash that short. also known as a noose.. the breakup was probably a good one..
Did you give him what he needed?
**********************************************
Whomever is trying to pm me, please email me at [email protected]. I do not deem it necessary to renew VIP at this time.
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-- Modified on 6/19/2005 3:03:46 PM
To be honest with you, he googled my legal name right when we met and then brought the information that he located on me with him to our first date. So there you go. We google each other. It is not like I don't trust him. I was just screwing around with the computer when I found this site. Who expects to find this? Are you satisfied now?
People change. There are convicted criminals who have served their time and are law abideing citizens now. The fact that he hasn't hobbied since December 2003 shows you are a positive influence on his life. Please step back and smell the roses. Best of luck to you.
About a month ago, Garrett did post a message about this. He does say in his post that Garrett1142 is not his TER alias, so there is no way to know how active he has been since 2003.
It is possible that she is the one. It is also possible that someone is doing a fake off the original post.
Anyone who is wacky enough to use their "Real email ".. c'mon..
That is what girl in dc was referring too..
**********************************************
Whomever is trying to pm me, please email me at [email protected]. I do not deem it necessary to renew VIP at this time.
***********************************************
-- Modified on 6/19/2005 3:10:38 PM
He didn't say that it wasn't his TER alias. He said it was "not just his TER alias," but the username of his email.
As he said, a hard thing to explain when a simple google search comes up with TER. Looks like the lid blew off of it.
I don't believe this is fake. It's too much like what a despondent Civie woman would write.
With your attitude, he's damned if he tells you or not. I have been smoked for being upfront in a new relationship about what we around here call "hobbying."
He loved your innocence. You don't get that in the hobby. He's now probably sorry it's gone.
Also, attention shitheads who tease me about my name: I just googled my handle and found my reviews safely buried in drivel. Can you say the same?
Your kindness is heart-rending.
j/k - 40W
You rebuild the trust by telling him from here on out --- while he's with you --- seeing anyone else is unacceptable (it was not clear from your post how recent or frequent these events were).
-- Modified on 6/19/2005 5:31:53 PM
What is it that you want? A guarantee? sorry, but human relations do not come with a guarantee.
From a MALE perspective: Remember the phrase "for better or worse?" In today's world some women translate "for better or worse" to mean - "for better or until I can identify a better situation." Each sex has gender specific problems with relations and their expectations of them.
So, while you have traded your "innocence" for a relation with another person - I would challenge why did you investigate in the first place? You had your own suspicions.
Reexamine what you wish in a relationship - if it is fidelity then be clear about that - if it is someone who is a virgin to all involvement with other humans - be clear about that.
What are you upset about, that they guy hobbied - or that he hobbied while with you? If the former - get over it. If the latter, and it matters to you, get over him. simple... but to post here? why? We in this hobby know the potential for harm... we also know that this hobby - as is, satisfies our sexual fantasy needs... and benefits the providers financially.
And as I have said on numerous occasions, most of the ladies in this hobby, are much better than the veiled accusations that you have hurled at them. They are more honest and sincere than most "civvies" that I have met. They also come closer to knowing what they want from a relationship and life.
For the most part, they have earned and deserve more respect than you offer.
So because I am a "civvie" I am not worthy of love and respect? Let me tell you, my father murdered my mother and then he killed himself when I was five years old. I have no family at all. I have no one to stick up for me. You think this makes me unworthy of love and attention? You think this makes me beneath the women who sell themselves here? Think about it.
Why should he tell you/have told you? If he's hobbied before you met him then it's none of your business and if he did it while you were together then yes, it may upset you because of your apparent insecurity, but get over it honey. We're talking physical infidelity here, not emotional. There's a huge, huge difference. Your comment, "she is someone he slept with through this site" indicates that you don't understand the nature of the escort/client relationship. The lady (not 'she' BTW, as we were always taught, 'she' is the cat's mother) didn't 'sleep' with him at all, she fucked him, got paid and they parted. And both, presumably, were happy with the deal. Which reminds me, "unpaid whore" is an oxymoron.
Frankly, you sound like a bit of a stalking nutter. How dare you go through his PC. And what is this "Before Garrett, I had saved myself for someone special for a number of years" nonsense? So is that your real gripe? You are one of these women who uses the withholding of sex as a bargaining chip and you're pissed off that Garrett had the ingenuity to get around this little hurdle. You figured that if you dangled your pussy like bait he'd eventually crack and stump up for a ring, a roof over your head, an Amex gold card or some other dubious marker of commitment? He didn't make you feel like an unpaid whore at all did he? Just underpaid, and that really, really eats at you.
you are HOT tonight. Thank you for the post - it was well said and needed. This concludes the rational portion of this post.
But onto my fascination with the delectable Miss Bond. Are you an agent ? Do you have a license? to______? Do you have any missions that would cause you to visit the Yanks!? and are you a Double (d) agent!? Ahh, your thoughts interest me, your web site delights me, and yes, just the thought of your accent thrills me! Bond, Miss Emma Bond.... This board would not be nearly enough fun without her! she is truly a joy!
Believe me. It is just PHYSICAL. Most of the girls he fucked only wanted his money and could care less about the person he is. He got some pussy for an hour or two and thats it. HE could care less about the person the girl is. Be grateful he hired escorts rather than have an affair with his secretary or something, which would mean emotional entanglement (something you DONT want). Escorts could care less about your "sweetheart", they only want his money. And perhaps YOU are the reason he sought out escorts. Have you thought of that?
Sheesh. I thought when you went down on me and stuck your tongue down my throat, you were trying to suck out the few brains I have. Now that I know that I am only a few dead presidents with a hard on, I want a refund, because your passion mislead me. Let's see can't sue you for alimony, palimony, and certainly not matrimony, but since I feel so used, I will forget that you put that in such plain english that almost no one can miss the point. But, now that I think about it, put me down for twice in July. At least, I know my dead presidents will go for a few happy endings and not the shoes my wife always says she'd like to put up my ass.
I don't believe many providers on this board would agree with you, though your message is confusing given your omission of the word 'not' between could and care. Regardless, your underlying sentiment shines through, and it's a mean one.
If you are a women, and I doubt it, you sell your sisters really short by presenting them as being diametrically opposed to 'normal' civvie women in their level of emotional involvement.
Yes, as I said, it's not emotional intimacy in the accepted sense of the word, but to say that it's only about the money is one of those tiresome, stereotypical beliefs that is usually only postulated by women who have never worked in this field.
Yes, the money is a big deal. After all its why we are providers and not just civi women picking up men in bars to fuck. What I meant was that in the grand scheme of things, after fucking a hundred men a month give or take a few, very few men stand out in my mind. Its the money that I remember, its the money that matters but its the kind men that keep me doing this. Sure i have my favorite men, of course. Ive made wonderful great amazing connections with some of these men. And many have become dear friends. I love what I do. But it is what it is. This is a business transaction. And even though Ive made some great connections, I have no desire to break up a marriage or a relationship. They hire me to fuck them and pay me to leave them. And I give them the most amazing experience I can, without the emotional attachment, without the fear (on every side) of falling in love. And yes, I am a woman and a provider, one man on here can very well attest to that. Forgive me if I came across mean. I guess it just pisses me off and I just am a bit cynical when a girl comes on here outing a guy trying to find pity because he "cheated" on her. To me, its not cheating. Its a physical desire. Sex and love are way too different things. And too many women mix up the two. The world (and relationships) would be much better if we can just realize that. Sex is just sex, thats it. Perhaps if people were more honest and open and understanding in relationships problems like this would not arise. Jealousy is a bad bad thing and even more bad when it becomes wrongly mixed up in the hobby.
What is it with whackos like you impersonating escorts? Do you get some kind of thrill out of it? Can you please just fuck off and go get your kicks somewhere else. Some poor unsuspecting idiot might actually pay attention to you.
Ahh, this is the other Miss Bond this evening.... where did the other one go!?
For 30k to 35k at the prevailing rate, who wouldn't blow off 100 men? It's sounds like the worst type of whoring possible, but it's doable (only 5 per day with 10 days off). There is a Wisconsin provider who strictly forbids more than 7 per day so with her output (not judging peformance), she's up to 42k. So this is the attraction to this biz. Whether these data are reached each month is inmaterial. A gal with only average math skills can make that sing until Xmas. Forgive me you courtesans who work hard for the money and who obviously get more out of it that the dough.
-- Modified on 6/19/2005 10:59:30 PM
Jesh,
this work is HARD on a lady and on her body.
Those numbers are INSANE.
In terms of 5 per day at the prevailing rates, hell yes. It's doesn't mean there is quality in the act, nor are all 100 going the full distance, but yes, phyically, it's being done in most major cities by women who care not for this biz the way you do. Ever visited an AMP or some other questionable place where maybe people are being held against their will? We agree, it's insane, but its real my dear.
It is possible to do those numbers, and maybe more. but the providers that I see, mostly indys, don't. They actually plan their days, schedule. In fact my ATF and I joke about the fact that she is somewhat difficult to schedule with, but going in, I know the drill, I also know that my time with her will be very high quality - so I am not concerned. I am concerned about her.
Number vs. Quality - this is not the only profession that is facing this delimma. Anyone care to talk about their primary health care PROVIDER!? hummmmmmmmmmmmmm...... think about it.
You gotta' be flippin' out of your mind if you think so. As I said before,
TRY IT FIRST...
then tell me what is easy.
So I pulled a 100 out of my ass. Im very low profile myself, seeing 1-2 guys a day. I much prefer the quality of a session than the quantity. If I were greedy I would be seeing 100 a month. I just said that because Im sure there are women who see that many a month. Lord, I didnt mean to stir up trouble. And how many times do I have to say I AM A WOMAN AND A PROVIDER!!!!
Geez, suddenly I feel like dropping all my ATFs.
-- Modified on 6/19/2005 10:14:16 PM
I chided Ms ANYCProvider because I know full well that MOST of the women see hobbyists as losers. Save for a few women who make it their business to court men and treat them fabulously, she is right. EB would not do this for FREE nor would any woman this day and age. And unfortunately, for the majority of women, this is about the $$$. Make no mistake. Women who do this and say they ENJOY it is a bit of a misnomer for me. How can you lay down with these 100 men in a month, take all kinds of shit, suck on latex, kiss, smell b/o, have your ass and pussy rammed (ok, some of you like it rough)and tell everyone, you ENJOY what you do? That, to me, defies logic.
I know its just semantics, but can't we find a better euphemism for "I enjoy my work" such as "It pays the bills" or "It beats MikeyDs" or "Where else can I go with a limited education and make more than lawyers?" Please, I find it very hard for someone to say that they enjoy something that you are not willing to do for free. My rant.
Who the Hell are you!? Many of the providers that I have seen are people with careers outside of the hobby. Many have graduate degrees... DO YOU!? And many do enjoy the activity. Really, just because you have BO, give shit and like to have your ass involved says nothing for the rest of us.
This really gets me going - and I am NOT a provider, just happen to think highly of the women that I have met in this hobby.
Read the thread and the message again. I did not cast a single net around a provider. I merely posed a question. For you, I hope you see the few quality women who do this for a living and make a greater life from it. For a woman to say, she slamming down 100 guys in a month and enjoys it. You ask any of the degreed women that you speak of and if they are telling you that they enjoy the company of 1200 men in a year, then I will come back and apologize. Until then, read the post for what its true meaning. It was not an attack, dick brain.
But know what, some women actually enjoy sex.... I know, I know, difficult to believe, but it is true. And yea, one of the most fascinating evenings I have ever had (with a civvie or pro) occured with a pro.
I also can see the point, that these ladies do not work for a corporate structure. They must perform, whether they feel like it - or not. I must say, I have been with at least two providers who had a bad day, but, know what, they made me have a good day. Now that is skilled. Maybe you weren't attacking, but from where I sit, with some providers as friends, it felt like it!
If you tell me that AnotherNYCProvider is in this because she LOVES what she does, then I am all wet. I think she is prototypical of the new hobby as I call it. Yes, I have friends too... and good ones that I have met right here, some going on 5 years. To a person, the hobby is a means to an end. All of them and your friends would walk away from this life in a minute were they to win the lottery or inherit millions. Remember, no women will have trouble finding dick unless she is butt ugly and even then, it takes all types. Most healthy women (mentally healthly too) enjoy sex, but to fuck 100 strangers in a month is a bit of a stretch to say she ENJOYED every last one of them. Eck! I need to bathe thinking about it.
-- Modified on 6/19/2005 11:36:28 PM
-- Modified on 6/19/2005 11:47:41 PM
I never said that they enjoyed all of them... only that they enjoy sex. In fact, more than one of them has told me of the hobbiests that she did not enjoy - so, that is true... I guess that I am ok.... not great, but ok.
lol.
First reason: because it's what the market will bear. I know a woman who was seeing guys for free and was getting exhausted, till a friend suggested she make money at it.
Second reason: the cost the woman. Not just financial. Medical. Social stigma (even if it's legal). Self-esteem. Opportunity costs. Psychological cost (the hemorrhage of confidence for a woman who has sex with many men for nothing) Psychological stress unrelated to the sex. Risk of arrest and criminal charges and legal costs. Risk of being beaten, robbed, raped and killed. Risk of the effect on your children... I hope you get the point, because I could think of many more of these.
It seems to me that there are faster, less painful ways of suicide than for a woman to have sex with a lot of guys for free.
As for your contention that most think hobbyist are losers. Does it occur to you that you may agree that most clients they see are really losers? Compare this to what wives say about their husbands. If you did this, you would perhaps very little statistical difference, that both groups consider most males they're intimately involved with to be losers. Women just living with SO's might think of their guys more highly.
NoBrain, I've had too many experiences to tell me that most providers are at least open-minded about the guys they see. One provider who has diverted course to my home city to see me (and no, she couldn't have seen anybody else in the short time she was there.) Another who picks me up at the airport off the clock. Another who I had a falling out with, who upon her retirement, contacts me to tell me she forgives me, after which, I never see her again. Another who retired before I could see her, who I correspond with now. (BTW, even though she's retired, I don't know her civie name.)
So, NoBrain, I know for a fact what you say isn't true. I'd say if there's any truth to it, there's probably a good reason why they think most of their clients are losers. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Losers need sexual satisfaction, too, at least as much as the winners.
Zin, you are taking the word "loser" far too literally. I am most happy for you that seek out and find some the best providers on the planet. I do too. We are in the minority. Not a day goes by that I don't read a new review that says just the opposite and the numbers increase every year and save the queen for all of those unreported cases where guys are made into losers by AMPS, ePimps, jack shacks, and other such hustles. You want to see the world through the prism of your own lens and my friend it's far more grittier than you may want to admit. The word loser refers more to what people who call us who pay for play and believe it, we are in the minority on that front too. Before, I heard of TER and other such boards, I ran into a few low class situations and with more and more ladies joining the fray, do you really believe the hobby is getting more quality women? I doubt it. More and better looking maybe, with silicone tits and implants, but unwilling to do what it takes to match the true courtesans that we have come to adore. Hell man, smell the rotten cunt out there, it's gaining on you.
-- Modified on 6/20/2005 8:20:22 AM
-- Modified on 6/20/2005 8:46:09 AM
You've completely switched subjects. More to answer this later. I'm in a hurry now.
Can you validate the post?
And everyone is entitled to keep them to themselves. You would really benefit from having a different perspective about this.
From what I can gauge the *real* significance of your relationship with Garrett is that if he saw escorts before he met you, he also stopped seeing them after he found you. If anything should be important to you, in terms of your relationship with him, it should be that fact. And if that is the case, he behaved as honourably as you could possibly expect and deserve, and you should be grateful for it.
You are allowing the past, before you even knew him, to corrode your judgement of him, and that is wrong.
He could have been upfront with you, and told you everything about himself. But what was the point of that, really? Should every couple who become involved in a relationship have the right to know the past histories of the other? In my view you are only entitled to know as much of that past history as he deems fit to disclose. That applies to everyone. What happened before should be irrelevant, and it is your problem and not his if you feel otherwise.
No one is perfect, no one is truly innocent. Not Garrett, and certainly not you.
Sure got the lingo down in a month's time.
My greatest fear is my girl finding out. I know it would kill her...Maybe I should do internet clean up.
-- Modified on 6/19/2005 9:02:55 PM
You had illusions about male sexuality, and sexuality in general. Garrett supported the illusion you desired, the illusion that made you feel secure about the world. You demand that illusion be supported as a condition for a relationship. Men can see this in many women. Many are willing to support this, project this illusion to you. It may be because they find other things very lovable about you; that's the better man. However, it may be because he gets turned on by the intrigue. I can't tell you which is truest of Garrett, and one is not exclusive of the other; and to be good at the former, you have to take at least some delight in the latter.
Don't feel too bad. Most marriages and monogamous relationships in this culture depend on this illusion as standard operating procedure.
You say you are sure you would have understood this better if he had come out and told you this at the earliest stages. ***No you wouldn't have.*** Actually, you would have removed Garrett from your life right then. Yes, it would have saved you the emotional trauma you're going through now, but that's different from understanding.
Truth is, you'd rather not have understood anything at all about the realities of sexuality; Garrett knew this. You wanted your illusion served up well-done, and he did it for you.
Ask yourself why this is so traumatic, get beyond empty statements like "impacting your self-worth as a woman," and "I got someone's leftovers" and at the bottom of it, if you can get there, you will find that this is it. You tolerate sexuality from men one way and one way only, and don't want to see the rest. And this would be true of sexuality in general.
"...I had saved myself for someone special for a number of years, if only because I didn't want to share my body with someone who I feel did not deserve me."
Come off it! This is inconsistent with your being treated like an "unpaid whore" in previous relationships. Draw misery from one or the other, but not both, please.
I'll tell you: no male in the world likes to be preemtively rejected on your "saving yourself" basis, which is **fundamentally** unfair. "Saving yourself" like you were going to be used up if you had sex beforehand?!? Preposterous! This is a position of low-self esteem and sexual anxiety, and self-denial (what about your desires rather than being Gallahad's reward?) No wonder you ended up feeling treated like an unpaid whore, if literally true or not.
It's not that I don't commiserate with you, Babe. I lament that you're going through a trauma like this. I would have not done what Garrett tried to do. I don't use those tactics, but not for the reasons that I believe you would think.
My sympathy, however, only goes so far. It was not Garrett who did this to you. It was your blissful illusions and ignorance about sexuality. You needed Garrett, or somebody like him, to support those. If you're going to be ignorant, than you should be consistently ignorant, and not get a little curious one day and spring your own trap.
Good luck. I hope you recover.
-- Modified on 6/20/2005 6:27:09 AM
I like your analysis - mostly agree with it, too.
Like life, things on the board are not always as they appear. My initial impression is (again, IF the post is genuine) that the OP is either very young, emotionally immature, or both.
Pain (emotional and physical) are part of the cycle of life. Time heals both.
My biggest disconnect about the whole thing is, why post here?
She's telling us that this lifestyle hurt her as an innocent bystander, and that we should restrain it because people like her get hurt.
If its hoaxed, whoever wrote it needs to turn pro, because it's well done. But I don't think it's a hoax.
Pain may be part of the cycle of life, but it starts another one of those "life cycles." Vengeance. I hope not. But I've got to think that she'll hold this community responsible for her pain. Her posting here is a bad omen in that direction.
You are not alone. Through the years, there have been many women like you posting on the extramarital board, explaining their pain at the betrayal. So much of what you have said could have been said by many other women, perhaps millions of other women. That said, you're not likely to catch much sympathy here.
If I were an evil supervillain, I'd recommend that you stop getting mad and start getting even by checking out online gigolos. But I won't. If I were an evangelist, I'd recommend going to church that can provide a spiritual experience for you. But I won't recommend that either.
Instead, I recommend that you take a long hot bubble bath, give some time to yourself, and relax. Take some time out from your boyfriend, because you need some time just for you. Then, figure out what you want to do with your life.
Sometimes, life stinks. And when that happens, clean yourself up, and move on with your life. Are you naive? Sure you are. We are all naive some time in our lives, so don't feel bad about that. Life goes on, and it's up to you to pick up the pieces and figure out what you truly want in your life.
In these posts, there is much inconsistancy....
All the answers you seek are hidden in much words. The task is now to remove the untruth from the truth and learn.
Much difficulty in your task, there is.
Assuming the post is a fake, you guys are not doing a good job of putting her in her place.
Assuming the post is real, I'm amazed at how defensive everyone is. We seem to have a need to justify what Garret has done, or who he is. Not one post sympathizing with her situation. Not one post validating her idealistic dreams for the relationships.
Have we become so hardened to hobbying? “We're talking physical infidelity here, not emotional.” You know, most of the civie women do not make that distinction. Guys understand it, but most civie ladies do not.
This is sad, really sad. I’m inclined to believe the post is real, although I am not 100% sure. Are we so callous that when someone who is hurt by the lions, comes into the den, that we cannot put hobbying aside for one minute and offer the person some support? Regardless of whether she is living in a dream world or not, her life has just be torn apart. The little girl from small town, USA getting a rude awakening upon her first visit to NYC. Is it so bad for people to have some innocence? Does everyone have to go around paranoid that they are going to be stabbed in the back when they least expect it?
I have not yet responded to her post because I haven’t figured out what to say. My normal bluntness would not be appropriate.
Garrett’s wife: Not all guys are saints, and not all guys are like Garrett and us hobbyists. Most guys are somewhere in between. You can’t change a guy’s past. Does that mean you can’t have your ideal romance? Far from it. It just means that you have to be highly selective. I don’t know how to be that selective, although I do know it takes years to know with any certainty if he is the right one or not.
-- Modified on 6/20/2005 3:56:03 AM
The point about believing it fake doesn't apply to me. I'm just about certain it's real.
I feel the trauma that she's gone through to be lamentable. But I also said that there's a limit to my sympathy. I have to limit it when it innocence is based on ignorance.
It's never bad for people to have innocence, but that's not the central question here.
I don't think I was defending Garrett. I was telling her what she should do if she wanted to rebuild herself sturdier than before.
I think you'll find that it's not a question of infidelity. What she's complaining about is that he hobbied *before* she met him. She never once refers to the fact that he was unfaithful to her.
Look at her final paragraph in which she says:
"So men, make sure you know what you are doing when you choose to enter into a relationship ***post "hobby,"*** and you choose to withhold your truth. It will only make her hurt as I am hurting once she realizes that she has given her heart away."
And from the way I read it, she was his girlfriend for a year plus, not his wife.
As I said in my post, I think that his past history is his business, and his business alone, unless he decides to share it with her. Of course, he takes the risk that she'll react this way, should she find out. But incidentally, IIRC on a previous thread, he claims that he finished the relationship before she found out.
Aphra
Tokai,
In reading your responses both here and in the marriage and hobbying thread, I've come to a certain impression of your beliefs. My perception is that you're a faithful, church-going type. Your comments regarding society's morality and the santictity of marriage leads me to conclude that you have accepted these teachings of morality on faith.
My other impression is that many here have questioned what we see as indoctrination. The view is that sexual impulse is a carnal instinct of the human animal; suppresion of it is unnatural. The human animal is compelled by this just as strongly as the nobility of man and man's spirit.
Idealism and naivity often leads to one getting hurt. I feel sorry for this woman's grief as much as I would a child's experience learning about fire and hot stoves. It is heartwrenching to watch; in the end, it is an experience that both should come away from wiser for having lived through it.
Overall, I don't believe it is our place to offer this woman comfort. I can not condemn Garrett and I in no way believe that he preyed on her innocence. I find no evil in his actions, nor even a lack of discretion. By paying her empty, soothing words, I believe, we would partake of a larger tragedy and disservice to the women whom enricher our lives, tolerate our foibles, and support our egos, and ids. I will not 'throw them under the bus' just to ease her tears.
a bit surprised that all the findings of this very hot research topic have passed you by. There are now literally hundreds of theses, articles & books in the public domain that address the issue of gender based differences in responses to emotional vis a vis sexual infidelity. eg:
Journal of Evolutionary Psychology 2: 121-128
Original Article
Title: Which Infidelity Type Makes You More Jealous? Decision Strategies in a Forced-choice Between Sexual and Emotional Infidelity
Achim Schützwohl, Abteilung Psychologie, Universität Bielefeld, Postfach 100 131, 33501 Bielefeld, Germany.
Extract
"A woman's reproductive success, in contrast, is endangered if she loses a male's resources and assistance in raising her offspring. A man's mere sexual infidelity does not necessarily imply the risk of losing his paternal investment. Rather, this resource threat arises if he develops a deep emotional attachment to another mate. As a consequence of these sex-specific reproductive threats, the male jealousy mechanism (JM) is hypothesized to be particularly concerned with a mate's sexual infidelity, whereas the female JM is hypothesized to be particularly concerned with a mate's emotional infidelity."
So, whilst most probably can't articulate the reasons for their responses, the response is very real. You will also find studies that support the argument that there is no difference. However, I am a bit sceptical of these studies because they tend to be based on physical responses (eg increases in heart rate) and tend to be of the 'imagine your partner is doing this, now fill in a questionnaire' type style of experiment. I think the best measure is relationship longevity after discovery of different forms of infidelity and in these cases, emotional infidelity is an almost certain deal breaker.
-- Modified on 6/20/2005 6:13:36 AM
If the man produces offspring away from the primary mate, it can be reaonsably presumed that resources may be redirected towards those additional offspring.
In addition, if woman are truly looking for resources to support offspring, evolution would head towards the mistress not being a party to the infidelity (she would not receive the resources she requires).
Finally, without the male insisting upon fidelity from the woman, how would he know that the he is supporting his offspring.
Behaviours psychology has a lot of problems.
In evolutionary terms, there are three reasons to insist on fidelity, and these are expressed emotionally many ways. BTW, its something to impose on one's mate, not something to restrict one's own practices.
1) Confidence of paternity, which only applies to males.
2) Assuring that the partner provides resources for the offspring.
3) Preventing competition for your offspring; especially competition from offspring by a partner the female has deemed fittest to father her offspring.
For the third point, it must be seen that our genes are totally selfish and amoral in the emotions they impose on is. You should also be known that for different species, or for even different individuals within a species, these three imperatives vary in importance. For humans, it's 1 and 2 that are paramount. In some species, like say, the black widow spider, that female is not going to let that male produce other offspring to compete with her brood. That's why the male sacrifices his life as a price for mating (though some quick and clever ones do get away occassionally for another mating session!)
Your own second point is in error. Selection can't go in that direction, though social mores may, the fact is, monogamy is something human beings impose on each other, and through psychological means, too. It is not something that an individual will impose on themselves without socialization in that direction.
My point about the mistress is that: If she is looking for support, the mistress role does not provide that support unless the guy is really wealthy, and can support a concubine. Since the abilitly to support multiple wives/offspring is rare, evolutionary development should proceed towards discouraging women from considering the mistress role.
That doesn't mean a married lady doesn't cheat. Just that she won't be a mistress. In fact, the thoughts behind married ladies cheating are:
1) She is getting support from the marriage parter; but 2) prefers the genes of another guy (better looking?). However, this gets back to the confidence of paternity issue.
Such men might be rare, but that fact is overwhelmed by the reproductive jackpot getting such a mate would mean. Remember in this culture, one of those guys makes anywhere from a thousand to tens of thousands times my yearly income. On that, he could easily provide decent or better support for a harem of mistresses.
Even now, in some countries, men do have multiple wives/mistresses, who they do support. The Arab countries, for instance. However, if some men have exclusive sexual rights to four or more women, and can enforce it, it means that sadly, many men in that culture have no access to mates whatsoever, except the UTR provider risking her very life, but who probably save these cultures from civil war in the process.
Moreover, I think women evolving to favor being a wife over being a mistress would happens, really, due to the environment of living in a community, not due the to fact that supportive mates are too rare. Any social animals within a social unit must come to regulate reproduction amongst each other. This is true of wolves as it is true of bees. They must evolve strategies to do this, or else reproductive competition will tear the community apart. So a women favoring being a wife instead of a mistress doesn't gain the ire, resentment or harassment of peers or perhaps worse. She's regulating her own sexuality, so the group leaves her alone.
Obviously, wives resent mistresses on principle. But the disdain expressed about it is more an adaptation to living in large social groups that must regulate sex and reproduction within the group, make sure and enforce a rationing (such as monogamous marriage.) Look here for women evolving in such a way.
I just wish I had thought of it first. Poor Babecandy mourning from the loss of her relationship and what do most of us do, bash-bash-bash her for her actions.
But not you Tokai you offer the cyber shoulder for her to cry on. The beacon of understanding and compassion here for Babecandy to latch on to.
Based on that premise I would like to agree with Tokai on all topics he made. Yeah, come here poor Babecandy Junior & Tokai will take care of you.
I specialize in providing women a life full of luxury and deceit so don't worry you will be well taken care of my dear. That dam Garrett you can tell me where he lives and we can go there and I'll beat him up too!! Junior and Tokai know how you feel, we're not like most guys, we're certainly nothing like that Garrett.
PM me if you would like to discuss this further you poor thing.
(does this make me a bad guy?)
On an anonymous board, you can't really prove someone is fake or not as a regular users (mods perhaps can, in some cases). I'm skeptical of a woman who is supposedly that upset about her boyfriend's hobbying calling herself "babecandy" to post about it. I also find some phrases like "treated like an unpaid whore" very unusual for a civie woman to use. In addition, according to Garrett, his gf found out about this over a month ago.
So let's recap: A girl comes a month after she finds her bf's TER reviews, selects the name "babecandy" then goes on and on dramatically about how traumatized she is he used to hobby before she met him.
You'll have to excuse me if my skepticism overfloweth and my sympathy does not. If she is real, she's whining on an escort board, no less, about a boyfriend seeing escorts BEFORE they met (Garret's last reviews were 12/03, quite a while ago). If she was real and had any common sense, she'd work it out with him or kick him to the curb if it bothers her that much.
I feel for you Garrett, if this is your girlfriend.
Much ado (deep dooo) about nothing; but, y'all, if you have the time to spend pontificating be my guest.
Fellow Hobbyists, Esteemed Providers-
Wow, it’s really bizarre to see part of my personal life discussed in this forum. This IS in fact a real situation that is actually happening and for those of you who’d like to know what has actually happened - here you go:
The girl who created this post was the reason why I stopped hobbying and I haven’t seen a provider since meeting her. She found out about TER after we’d been "on a break" so that's why I wasn't hesitant to tell her the truth and full detail of my hobby involvement in 2003.
And finally, Yes... I’m clearly stupid for using part of my standard personal email address as my TER handle. I never dreamed something as simple as that could ever cause a situation this ridiculous.
Extraordinarily,
Garrett1142
I saw that your reviews and posts ended around December of 2003 so it seemed like you did the right thing ending the hobbying when you met this girl.
Why she chose to post *now* complaining about something you did before you even met her, is beyond me. I don't pretend to understand a woman who think it's a personal betrayal for you to have seen escorts before you dated her. I don't have much sympathy for someone who thinks this discovery is "devastating" and somehow lowers her own self-worth as a woman.
It's unfortunate she can't seem to let go of this and/or chooses to embarrass you by discussing this personal issue on this board. I hope you two can work out whatever issues you have in your relationship. Or failing that, do whatever is best for you both. I wish you luck.