Not sure what that means. Try to explain this...
http://www.awolbush.com/rumsfeld_saddam.jpg
I noticed and posted a comment on a thread down below thanking all those who have served our country. This made me think for a second and I would like to ask the forum a question.
I live in Monmouth County New Jersey near Ft. Monmouth. Since the begining of the Iraqi war there have been a steady set of protestors outside the fort on the weekends with signs such as "Stop Bush's oil war" etc. I personaly find this in poor taste. I can understand disagreeing with the war but why protest outside a fort in our soldiers faces like that.
I was amazed that on Memorial Day they were there again with their usual rhetoric. I'm not asking if you agree with the war or our current political climate but do you find it as offensive as I do that people would stand at the foot of our fort protesting in front of soldiers that regardless of their individual feelings have to fight and have to obey their oders?
I understand all the freedom of speech issue's but I found this to be in particularly bad taste. So my question is what about you?
It's a bit too indirect a way to honor them. I realize they think that stopping the war helps the soldiers, but that's not how the soldiers will see it.
What are they thinkiing?
And I was a Medic. What do they expect the soldiers to do? Turn on their commanders and risk prision? At least they dont have a draft now..I belive most see our soldiers as willing to accept a lower standard of living with a high risk to harm. That is the true meaning of sacrifice.
I joined because of the first gulf war, I wanted to be apart of something greater then I was. No matter who else protested or disagreed I knew I was in for a purpose. People will focus on the lives lost and not understand the millions we have saved (the lives lost will not and should not ever be forgotten). I am Proud of where I was and I am proud of my country today. I have seen more then any could imagine, and no movie will even compare the drama or heart ach I have seen in these countries. When I signed up for that life I did it willingly, not only to protect my own country but I knew I was saving the lives of millions rather or not they fully appreciated my sacrifice or not, I understood them.
Yes it still hurts to this day to see protestors, most have no clue what is really going on. If any one knows my temper it was not easy and still is not easy to hold my tongue and smile.
Though I have chosen a new life for me, I will never ever forget the memories i made while over seas wearing the United States over my heart.
as someone that was there, wtf are you talking about?
-- Modified on 5/31/2005 9:04:06 AM
Of what it does to someone to be blamed for the politicans choices. I enlisted to avoid the draft. I didn't agree with the war or how it was fought but what choice does the soldier have.I have the greatest respect for our folks in uniform and still belive that they deserve better. I remember walking through airports in uniform and having people make terrible remarks about us in the late 60's. That's what I'm talking about. I support Memorial Day and what it stands for.If they want to protest let them do it in front of Congress not the troops.
-- Modified on 5/31/2005 9:21:58 AM
but came out the better for it. Like many had mixed emotions about the war at that time. Once I got there it was all about coming home in one piece and I really didnt give a rats ass about what protestors thought. I heard some stories from some of my Army buddies about their reception coming home yet mine was just the opposite, I was treated with nothing but respect. BTW if someone had ordered me to burn babies I would have put a bullet in their cold assed heart. War sucks, innocent people die and at times you can't always tell who the enemy is. Seen some mind altering things at way too young an age, still find myself thinking of buddies lost even after all these years.
I took a hit while I was there and just in case you're the medic that gave me that morphine until the chopper arrived. Thanks 
But if it bought you a ticket back to the world I might have taken care of you on the flight..Med evac.From in country to Japan or Travis stateside. I lost my first buddy over there in 65. He was on a dust off. We used to go to the range together in So Cal. We were neighbors. He never met his second child.
Lucky me, I arrived 3 months after the TET offensive in 69 I had only 18 days left when I bought my ticket home, once again lucky me
bbI graduated HS in june 68. Screwed up my colledge deferment and had to enlist to avoid what you got.Drafted...I was with a reserve unit that got activated. I was in the Air Farce as we called it...My buddy was older and a neighbor. We enjoyed trips to the shooting range together. In thoes days all bases had a range open to personelle and dependents. I was a military brat too. When TeT happened I knew one thing for sure....I didn't want to be a Grunt..
-- Modified on 5/31/2005 12:37:35 PM
Woody forgot to tell you that he took one to the head and now thinks mainly with his lower brain and thus his mayorship of the TER boards.
That's allright . I still have a sence of Humor...LoL... Never new I was a Mayor... Hell where is my campagine slush fund?
...........................................................................................................................................................................................................Time's up........Champagne...I'll drink to that
to this day, I will never forget the hate and disdain directed to me and my buddies on the way home from VietNam. We did not take any lives while we were there. Besides building projects for our military, we built for the Vietnamese, hospitals, schools, roads, irrigation and many other "civic" projects. To be called a names and being spit on as we walked through the airport shows that those people and the people protesting now DO NOT fully understand the "soldier's" part in this "war". I thank the men (and women) of any "war" that we have been engaged in and to those that served with me: the ones that made it home and to those that did not, I offer them my prayers, my thanks and my respect.
Freedom of speech is one of the things our military defends. I can pretty much NEVER think of a valid political protest as being in poor taste, and I remember that in the '60s military installations were just about the most often picketed locations. That was, however, then. We had a draftee army. Most of our troops had been impressed, and most (I remember) did not want to be in uniform. This is now. We have a volunteer military. EVERYONE wants to be there, and they all believe in the basic mission, if not this particular application of it. Consequently, I'm guessing that the protests outside Fort Monmouth are falling on much less receptive eyes and ears than would have been the case in '68.
-- Modified on 5/31/2005 9:25:11 AM
doesn't mean that your opinion means any less except regarding combat issues.
You still served.
not everyone involved in my misguided adventure WANTS to be there.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/09/wus09.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/01/09/ixportal.html
"I may not agree with what you say, but, I will defend, with my life, if necessary, you're right to say it."
Support the troops, no matter what!!!!
Just my opinion...
B
While I am definintely not a supporter of how our military has been used of late, protesting on Memorial Day is not acceptable in my book.
Dang, I was stationed at Ft. Monmouth back in 1982...used to love going over to Asbury Park and all of that. Beautiful post, but I can see them shelving it. Too bad. Will never forget draggin my duffel bag across the parade field at 1am on my way to checking in with my unit there. Ah, youth.
-- Modified on 5/31/2005 12:06:34 PM
the link is a flash file with sound.
your flash is a great reminder of the horrible attack and why we are at war. Go military and destroy the enemy where ever they are hiding. Thanks for the reminder, Karrie.
Thanks. Thanks a million! Can't remenber ever being as moved by a memorial as I was by this.
like it just happened again. Hugs and thanks to all the vets everywhere.
Dawn
I disagree. IMO, the best way for those (or any) protestors to earn understanding, sympathy, or support from the general public is by respecting those who sacrificed for the people the protestors are trying to influence. By not honoring those people, they are making theie own cause unsympathetic.
... does not necessarily or even particularly imply disrespect for those who now serve, or for those who have served and who have given their lives. That's how Nixon and Agnew tried to position those who protested THEIR war. By the way, MSD, I'm not for even a moment equating you with Nixon and Agnew. You're a good guy. They were pricks, and that they've died doesn't redeem them; it just makes them dead pricks. I simply mean that protest shouldn't correlate with disrespect. You know what Mark Twain said about patriotism for the sensible man. He said that it meant loyalty to your country ALL THE TIME, and loyalty to your government WHEN IT DESERVES IT.
-- Modified on 5/31/2005 4:36:33 PM
Believe me, I am 100% with you. I have been in plenty of anti-war marches since I left the Army 20 years ago. However, IMO, if they are going to carry signs on Memorial Day, the only messages they should have on there are ones of thanks to those who HAVE made the ultimate sacrifice. It is a day to put aside what killed those soldiers and to just thank them for being willing to make that sacrifice.
Not sure what that means. Try to explain this...
http://www.awolbush.com/rumsfeld_saddam.jpg
edited to reflect that this is not to relate to the right to protest, when or where, but to Mr. Info's blanket statement "It is never in bad taste to exercise one's freedom of speech" and why I feel there are manners in which some choose to protest that I hold in disdain.
During the build up to Gulf War Won, My wife and daughter talked me into taking them into the uptown area of MPLS for some unique shopping.
There was a protest/rally in progress. Against my wife's wishes, I thought this would be a good opportunity for my young daughter to see democracy in action (and the disgusting manner in which these Americans chose to conduct their public dissent.)
An idiot tried to burn a flag, it briefly burnt and everybody cheered, then went out because he hadn't properly used enough accelerant on the material. How dare those corporations make fabric with fire retardent in them. Then another slightly more intelligent idiot rolled a dumpster down the sidewalk and lit it by properly using an accelerant. The dumpster was under an awning and when a few others, the shop owner and I were trying to roll it away from the awning (and grab the little bastard that lit it so he could be prosecuted), another hippie wannabe, nailed us AND my wife AND daughter with red paint.
Red paint throwing was the thing to do at many "no blood for oil" protests during this time.
My daughter screamed when she got hit in the face and dirtbag screamed when I took 4 of his teeth out, broke his nose and cracked his upper plate while he was in mid-sentence yelling "you fucking fascists" at us. He may have been yelling "you fucking fas..(anything)" at us, we'll never know because that's all the farther he got.
My daughter got burnt eyes because this jackass had chosen a petroleum based paint, I was shortly thereafter charged w/assault and maggot was transported to emergency care I can only assume at taxpayer expense. Upon request, the paramedic gladly left me with a bag of saline to flush my daughter's eyes with though.
One of the other "vigilantes" was also charged w/assault when he dropped a different maggot that stepped up a little too quickly. The shop owner was never charged w/anything but was heavily jeered by the pack of maggots for pushing them back with a few blasts of his Sodium BiCarb. (Too bad he didn't have an old tetrachloride handy when he went out to attempt to extinguish the dumpster.)
I spent $4,000 in attny fees getting the assualt charge thrown out as I was acting in defense of my family and myself and two years later, $15,000 protecting myself against the maggot who ultimately lost his PI suit case against me when his record showed 2 previous arrests for vandalism and disorderly conduct (protest related) involving red paint on campus @ the U of MN.
Call bullshit if you want but I would do it again in a second w/o hesitation.
-- Modified on 5/31/2005 10:05:13 PM
Sounds to me like you went looking for trouble. Next time leave the kids at home before you start rioting.
It's either democracy in action or the disgusting manner in which Americans conduct themselves (you included). Exactly the pot calling the kettle black. Your behavior was reprehensible. You are damn lucky she wasn't killed.
THIS SHOULD BE POSTED ON THE POLITICS BOARD!
I didn't get a chance to weigh in on this issue till now, but thought I should, since I was a primary in the initial thread. Junior's post raised an interesting question, and all the responses were excellent.
As for me, I have always felt, (with some exceptions MSD), that those who spend the greatest amount of time protesting our country's military actions, are the least deserving to do so. When I see people burning "Old Glory", I am reminded that few if any spilled one drop of blood fighting under her. Other's spilled their blood so that they could do it. A complete dichotomy!
To address a few of the points made:
Granted, during Viet Nam, there was a draft. As coochmeister pointed out, many probably did not wish to be there. Today's military is indeed volunteer. I don't think the majority of them enlisted for the educational opportunities without giving some consideration to the fact that they may actually have to engage in conflict! As they say, "There are no free lunches!"
Karrie; Your link and post were excellent. I have new respect for you, (not to say I didn't hold you in high esteem before), and now consider you a sister in arms. I definately want to see you the next time your in NY.
Mr. Info; you are correct, but it's when and where one exercises that right, that has been brought into question here. As 1woody pointed out, the steps of congress may be a more suitable venue.
Robertini; this has nothing to do with politics! They don't call yesterday "Politician's Day!"
To alias G. Bush; volunteer is in the dictionary between "Volume and Voluptuous". A young marine in my legion post just re-enlisted to go back to Iraq so that he could be with his younger brother.
To MSD; Spot on, your posts are erudite as always, and to all you others who weighed in, great posts. Seems like there are a lot of veterans on this board!
As for myself, I did not enlist to avoid the draft. My family has a long naval tradition. I wanted to be a naval aviator, but in 66 they were only accepting men with 2 or more years of college for the flight program. A year later, they started the NAVCAD program to accept enlisted men, and waived that requirement. Hence, the movie, "An Officer And A Gentleman." I was always facinated by submarines, so that option seemed like the next best thing.
I PM'ed Snowblind to forgive him for "Outing" me, and to thank him for posting a pic of my "Alma Mater" as it were. Now you all know what my TER handle means. Us submariners like to stay "UTS", (under the sonar), since we are stealthy by nature. As I mentioned to snow, nobody gets to see us coming, except an occasional provider. LOL.
Peace to all, and "God Bless America!"
SS
have not served or shed any blood, please rememember that the ones that started this war (me, Dick Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc.) did not serve or shed blood either. If those that have not shed blood should not protest, then we who have not shed blood should not wage war.
You may also want to consider the protest as being
directly related to failure of our administration to
support troops who are coming back from the Gulf and
not getting support they need from the VA hospitals.
We have $$$ to burn building smart bombs, but not enough to take care of those who lost limbs to an Iraqi car bomb? This has been an issue in Chicago and is now coming to a head... Viet Nam Vets are considering going back to the streets to protest poor care of our returning brothers and sisters.
Personally, I fought to keep this place safe, secure, and open for expression of thought... could not care less if anyone agrees with me or not... at least they still have that right. Don't care if they fought or not, protested or not, it is still their right to protest - or not.
-- Modified on 6/1/2005 3:06:27 AM
oops i really should stop typing when drinking....
-- Modified on 6/1/2005 10:00:53 AM
Chicago VA care lags behind the rest of the country, you would not be happy with the situation there. Wasn't Hines VA Hospital considered the worst?