Actually, you can kind of merge the Buddhist and Jungian approaches for me, Horizononfire, as I think both apply to the process called Intuition. I'm not a Jungian, but I do like Jung's basic fourfold assessment of man as Thinking/Feeling/Sensation/Intuition, and in this schema see intuition as knowledge from various sources which share in common that they are not consciously analyzed or rational per se, but arise spontaneously in the mind/body: these can include sensations perceived but not appercieved, cultural memes, extrasensory perception, and the collective unconscious, all of which I think we become more sensitive to if we, as Innocent says, quiet extraneous mental processes. (Once we become aware of these factors, it then behooves us to apply those conscious, intellectual, rational processes to interpret, understand, and act upon the input that intuition brings us.)
As I stated above, I agree that a subset of intuition--at least insofar as how people often use (or misuse) the term--is bigotry and prejudice, when people kneejerk respond to stimuli and other people based on racial, ethnic, or class sterotypes, but properly speaking I don't think such responses are, in fact, intuition (at least not in the Buddhist or Jungian interpretations).
Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary defines intuition in part as "the power or faculty of attaining to adirect knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference"; this definition incorporates such means of knowing as extrasensory perception, inner realization achieved through quieting of the mind, and the collective unconscious. But it remains elusive, doesn't it?
It's far too much to go into here, but Spinosa, Kant, Bergson, and Husserl all have interesting perspectives on intuition. Kant for instance distinguishes between empirical and pure intuition, the former being intuition of objects and the later of space and time as the form of sensibility. Bergson contrasts intuition and discursive reasoning; in his view, intuition means grasping the essential fluidity of the world, while ratiocination falsely stops the flow of the world and spatializes time. Pretty heady stuff for a TS forum, ehh?
Yes, I guess you could say I'm a dualist: I'm both tshard1 and Ecstatic. It's this darn alias option; I like to post as Ecstatic as that's the alias I use on several other boards, but because I originally signed up for TER several years ago as tshard1 with my preferred email address, I can't seem to change the username, and I have to keep deliberately selecting the optional alias with every post. Needless to say, I often forget to select the Ecstatic alias, and my default username goes up instead. I wish there were an option to always use the alias in lieu of the username.
I tried to send you mail through my VIP mailing system and failed; nothing venomous. Perhaps I suffer from technoretardation. Do you have VIP mail?
Unfortunately i do not have VIP mail
Going through life without intuition is like driving a car wich has no side mirror and no rear mirror, all you can see is straight ahead.
The most important thing is to treat a client or a provider as people
Just like guys don`t want to be trated as clients
Girls don`t want to be treated as a piece of meat hanging from a public meat rack.
Lets consider all of us as persons, it will get us far more in the long run.
Peace.
Intuition is bigotry's wet nurse; a subconscious meat by-product composed of prejudices and preconceptions unidentified. Humankind, a species devoid of instinct, evolved cognition and reason as primary tools for mastering their world.
On the other issues, we are agreed.
To answer and agree on this one i`ll need a Webster dictionary, english is my third language but i will respond soon.....
I never would have guessed english your third language. You express abstract concepts very clearly which is rare even when english is a primary language. My post is filled with metaphoric language. Have fun interpretting.
Intuition is not a product
it is the real power
we all have it, it is not a special
talent given to a few, it is available
to those who are willing to listen to themselves
Your body can speak to you metaphorically trough the language of confusion.
Meditation can help to develop intuition
All the platitudes in the world won`t
wake up the intuition your body has on
a cellular level.
Did tou noticed my duality?
I hope not!!!
-- Modified on 8/3/2005 2:34:56 AM
I concur with your statement regarding cognition and reason being homo sapiens' primary world mastery tools, but I disagree that humans are devoid of instinct and that intuition is merely a melding of prejudices and preconceptions. Instinct is greatly reduced in the human animal in comparison with other animals, but not altogether absent (phobias are often evidence of supressed instinct, such as the fear of falling or of spiders). Intuition is a vague word comprising many different aspects, and no two definitions will agree exactly on the elements involved, but in addition to prejudices and preconceptions there are such elements as subtle sensory data which is perceived but not apperceived (not consciously processed by the intellect), memory impressions, social memes, and imagination, to say nothing of the possibility of clairvoyance or clairaudience (nor whether such "extrasensory" phenomena actually exist--I'll leave that up to you).
"Bigotry's wet nurse": interesting metaphor, but I'm not quite sure where you're going with that, as intuition quite often--if not most often--has nothing to do with bigotry (though it can, in which case the metaphor may hold).
Your theory of intuition fails to differentiate between humankind's method of acquiring knowledge and humankind's method of interpreting knowledge. Data collection, data storage, data recall, and data interpretation are distictly seperate. Reason is a logical framework responsible for data interpretation and happens on a conscious level. Intuition leaves data interpretation to subconscious processes, thus is devoid of a logical framework.
Phobias often are the result of operant conditioning, not intuition. They share similarities with intuition as they occur on a subconscious level, thus are devoid of a logical framework. Phobias differ from instinct as instinct are complex behaviors existing in the species' genetic code and not the result of operant conditioning.
In what way does my "theory of intuition" (not that I advanced a theory as such) not differentiate between data acquistion and interpretation? I stated that intuition may involve a number of means of data acquisition not processed by the conscious intellect: but such data has been acquired by what we are calling "the intuitive process" or intuition, and I identified some of these means (sensory input perceived but not apperceived, memory impressions, the possibility of extrasensory perceptions, etc.). This data is then interpreted, if only by a "gut-level" response. Were we to analyze the components of that response and those data, we would move from the realm of intuition to cognition, but the processes of data acquisition and interpretation are present in either case.
Intuition may lack a logical framework, but that doesn't invalidate it as a primary aspect of how humankind relates to the world or each human to himself. I assume for the sake of argument that you don't hold with Jung's fourfold schema (thinking-feeling-sensation-intuition)? I do, at least in general principle.
Interpretation (in the sense of identifying and responding to any given data set) of data is not exclusively (or, at times, even predominantly) rational; it's often emotional.
You said it yourself: "phobias are often the result of operant conditioning." Often: but not always. I did not equate phobias with intuition but with instinct, and while many phobias are the result of operant conditioning, some (such as the fear of falling) appear to be more deeply ingrained, the equivalent of instinct. And is the woody you get when you see a beautiful woman the result of operant conditioning? or of rational thought? I doubt it; it's instinctive.
I base the "bigotry's wet nurse" on personal observations. "I have a bad feeling about him.", is an intuition based statement I often hear. Usually it is based upon somebody's ethnic or cultural steroeotype regarding the person they refer.
Yes, I agree with you totally on that point. When "intuition" is a "bad feeling about him/her" that is--known or unknown to the person involved--actually based on conditioned responses and prejudiced inclinations derived from cultural stereotypes regarding ethnic or class or other elements, it's definitely bigotry. Fortunately, such bigoted responses--while far too common in society--are only one subset of so-called "intuition."
I have arrived (too?) late at this party but wish but to add two things:
First, my thanks for the dialogue. Easily skipped by those concerned more with girth of flesh than depth of thought, while most enjoyed by those sipping tea as they await a phone call from the office. And
Second: upon quoting; "I concur with your statement regarding cognition and reason being homo sapiens' primary world mastery tools", I must defer only to say, I believe language to be that tool. The Word. As notably displayed in this very thread by strangers raised on variant tongues, yet come together here for purposes of lust and enlightenment by means of these scribblings in the either.
Language.
At least that is what my gut tells me. LOL
Does thought produce language or does language produce thought? One for the ages...
Have we yet come to a concensus on exactly what intuition is? We all chime in with attributes, yet we have not even defined the term about which we argue. I've made it synonymous with bigotry, Innocent defined it as a kind of knowledge that occurs when you quiet extraneous mental processes (How perfectly Buddhist.), Ecstatic equates it to a reflexive process akin to instinct (Carl Jung man I assume?). Tshard, are you also Ecstatic?
Actually, you can kind of merge the Buddhist and Jungian approaches for me, Horizononfire, as I think both apply to the process called Intuition. I'm not a Jungian, but I do like Jung's basic fourfold assessment of man as Thinking/Feeling/Sensation/Intuition, and in this schema see intuition as knowledge from various sources which share in common that they are not consciously analyzed or rational per se, but arise spontaneously in the mind/body: these can include sensations perceived but not appercieved, cultural memes, extrasensory perception, and the collective unconscious, all of which I think we become more sensitive to if we, as Innocent says, quiet extraneous mental processes. (Once we become aware of these factors, it then behooves us to apply those conscious, intellectual, rational processes to interpret, understand, and act upon the input that intuition brings us.)
As I stated above, I agree that a subset of intuition--at least insofar as how people often use (or misuse) the term--is bigotry and prejudice, when people kneejerk respond to stimuli and other people based on racial, ethnic, or class sterotypes, but properly speaking I don't think such responses are, in fact, intuition (at least not in the Buddhist or Jungian interpretations).
Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary defines intuition in part as "the power or faculty of attaining to adirect knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference"; this definition incorporates such means of knowing as extrasensory perception, inner realization achieved through quieting of the mind, and the collective unconscious. But it remains elusive, doesn't it?
It's far too much to go into here, but Spinosa, Kant, Bergson, and Husserl all have interesting perspectives on intuition. Kant for instance distinguishes between empirical and pure intuition, the former being intuition of objects and the later of space and time as the form of sensibility. Bergson contrasts intuition and discursive reasoning; in his view, intuition means grasping the essential fluidity of the world, while ratiocination falsely stops the flow of the world and spatializes time. Pretty heady stuff for a TS forum, ehh?
Yes, I guess you could say I'm a dualist: I'm both tshard1 and Ecstatic. It's this darn alias option; I like to post as Ecstatic as that's the alias I use on several other boards, but because I originally signed up for TER several years ago as tshard1 with my preferred email address, I can't seem to change the username, and I have to keep deliberately selecting the optional alias with every post. Needless to say, I often forget to select the Ecstatic alias, and my default username goes up instead. I wish there were an option to always use the alias in lieu of the username.
Solution:
For horizononfire intuition is a product.
(Could you tell us where to buy it)
For others is a matter of ethnicity, class
etc,etc,etc,
We all have different concepts about intuition
but my intuition is telling me i have the reason.
In the mean time i will look for it in the yellow pages and in different cultures and class levels .....is it really bigotry and i may be wasting my time?? could it be a product and we may even need a presciption to buy it?
mhhh?? ..........I will have to follow my intuition......mantra...
namiohorengengionamiohorengenjio......shanti shanti.....
somebody is going to be on fire!!!!
I won, I won!!!!!!
-- Modified on 8/3/2005 9:13:35 PM
-- Modified on 8/3/2005 10:40:28 PM
-- Modified on 8/3/2005 11:14:53 PM
-- Modified on 8/4/2005 2:15:55 AM
-- Modified on 8/4/2005 2:17:20 AM
Stop throwing rotten fruit at me. Can you tell me where I can buy you? I promise not to leave a brown stain on your sheets or fill your envelope with counterfeit 20's, though I do not resemble an underwear model.
Do not loose control horizon
whatever happened to your dream of raise potatoes
if you can`t take rotten fruit or vegetables
Is this the best card you have to play?
Buy me because you couldn`t win?
P S.As of metaphore..... I still preffer William Blake`s Tyger, tyger burning bright
in the forest of the night
what inmortal hand or eye..................
When a negative tought hits you, hit it with a positive tought-you will come out the best!!!!
And of course everything horizon can say after this......it`s "ardor" pain,and so forth......
do you agree tshard?
I think I can see a wrinkle LOL,LOL,LOL
if i do not know the meaning of a word i have an escuse, english is not my mother language....
but i try......
-- Modified on 8/4/2005 1:47:59 PM
-- Modified on 8/4/2005 8:57:40 PM
-- Modified on 8/4/2005 10:07:05 PM
-- Modified on 8/4/2005 10:14:02 PM
Highend, you can't counterargue my point with you when you do not even know the meaning of the word 'product'. I'm not trying to win anything, only expressing an opinion.
LOL! That was a riot, Innocent TS! If you find out where to buy it, let me know, okay? So long as it's not one of those 30-minute infomercials on at 1:00 AM on cable where, if you call within the next half-hour, you will also receive a six-pack of Enlightenment, free!
And for only an additional three lifetimes of karma, we will blissfully include Nirvana at no extra charge.
This conversation is more appropriate in a snobby coffee house off the University. I would be happy to exchange theories of intuition, instinct, collective unconscious, evolution, religion, and existence with anyone. Let's do it over coffee. My lips get too tired if I read too much.
Disciples of Jung, Fritz Pearls, Berne and Siggy I see. Hess and P. Coelho will stimulate a good discussion. Start with the Alchemist
I'm not familiar with P.Coelho. Is she a top or a bottom?
She doesn`t take no for an answer.
"She doesn`t take no for an answer."
But can she make, 'Yes' my answer?
LOL!! This thread has made me laugh more than most threads--on this or any other forum--ever do!
Of course, if reading tires your lips, I'm sure there's a tgirl who would be happy to put them to other use....
Especially on Webster...Victor mmmhhhh...
sory fellers i done furgot hwerd I twas at. It ant gone happen again.