"I remember him because I liked him"
I didn't know this when I posted before, this really adds far more fire to my argument. This is EXACTLY why he used your name and it is EXACTLY why he's earned a good reference. If he knew you would remember him and that you liked him, then you're EXACTLY the right person to ask for a reference.
The reference equation, to use your own words, should be:
"I remember him because I liked him" = "good reference"
What if the other provider called and you said "Ya know, it's been a long time since I've seen him, but I remember him because I liked him."
That was all that needed to be said. Everybody would have won. You'd have rewarded his good behavior with you. The other provider would have gotten to spend time with what appears to be a quality guy.
-- Modified on 4/7/2004 9:50:04 AM
I just love taking my time for you, even though you haven't seen me since 2002.
I had to chuckle when I got a reference request from someone who I haven't seen for 2 years. His excuse "I've been seeing the out of towners and they're hard to get ahold of".
Not my problem bud, show some class.
but you don't seem to be able to read what's in front of you.
It's about using recent referenceable providers. If THEY won't give you a reference, it's not MY problem. I won't provide a reference for anyone I haven't seen for over 6 months.
People change. Just because a guy was "OK" 2 years ago certianly doesn't mean he is now.
I'll get off my vent box now.
I understand your frustration with this, but I have to disagree with your post. We don't ask for references for fun. We ask for references for one reason and one reason only, because providers want them, and for their protection, not for ours.
The reference system is a social contract that exists between providers. If you give references, you help the collective body of providers, including yourself. If you choose not to, you hurt the collective body of providers, including yourself.
Not one of those three sentences even mentions the hobbyist, and for good reason. Who he's seeing, where he's seeing them, how long since he's seen you... Those things have nothing--absolutely nothing--to do with references, references are simply providers contributing to the welfare of the provider system by keeping each other safe.
If I wanted to see you and one of your fellow providers wouldn't give you a reference because they thought my request was "not her problem," who loses? You the provider. You either go ahead, without the safety benefit of the reference, or you skip the meeting and you're out the $$$.
-- Modified on 4/6/2004 10:23:20 PM
References shouldn't be "used" just because they're the ones who will be easier to get ahold of. Especially when they're so out of date.
It's best to use the last lady you've seen as a reference rather than bother someone you saw 2 years ago.
Honestly, I'm really a nice boy and not trying to be a jerk about this. I just don't like going down the "slippery slope" of references being treated like they're a favor you're doing for the hobbyist, and thus you should consider whether the hobbyist is "deserving" before providing one. Providers give references on behalf of other providers, not on behalf of the hobbyist. Once we start seeing references as a favor we're doing for the hobbyist, we'll all end up in the reference-vacuum funk we were in a couple of years ago. The question isn't "has this guy seen me recently enough/spent enough $$$ with me to deserve a reference?" The ONLY question should be "do my fellow providers deserve to have me participate in the reference system or not?"
I totally agree that a more recent reference is better than an old one... But an old one is still better than none at all.
And let's make sure we focus on the underlying issue here... If this hobbyist had simply been out of the hobby for a year, this wouldn't be an issue, he'd get the reference. Let's keep it real here, the issue is that he's been seeing travelers instead of locals. In other words:
a. Your judgement about his hobbying patterns, and not his good behavior, are the criteria being used to decide whether to reference or not, and;
b. He's being "punished" for being honest, when he would have been better off lying about why he hasn't been around for a while...
Neither one of those is a good road to go down. This kind of "I don't like who he's been seeing besides me, so no references for him" is EXACTLY what caused the problems last time. Hobbyists "earn" references by being on good behavior when they're with you, and by good behavior alone. Who else he's seen besides you just shouldn't be part of the equation, and again, takes us down a road NONE of us want to go down, provider or hobbyist.
I told the provider what I knew to be true... I'd seen him 2 years ago and he was fine then and suggested she ask for recent references.
If this was the only case, no biggie, but it seems it's come up allot recently so I thought I'd post this initially to inform hobbyists to please use common sense regarding what's acceptable and what's not.
As a provider a reference that old would not be acceptable.
eg: A hobbyist sees a provider, he's nice to her, things go fine. He then uses this provider as a reference to hurt other providers.
I know of several hobbyists that can provide a good reference who in fact have raped, robbed and/or caused trouble for others.
"A hobbyist sees a provider, he's nice to her, things go fine. He then uses this provider as a reference to hurt other providers."
But you're mixing apples and oranges here... I don't disagree that sometimes guys do bad things. I don't disagree that he may actually have a good reference. But what does the passage of time have to do with this? He could just as easily have let only one day lapse between the good meeting and the bad one as two years. The amount of time that has passed between meeting 1 and meeting two in your example is completely immaterial and has no bearing on whether this person is evil or not... In fact a guy who is plotting to cause problems would likely get a few good references and use them right away, not sit on them for 2 years before hatching his scheme.
"I know of several hobbyists that can provide a good reference who in fact have raped, robbed and/or caused trouble for others."
Again, you're transferring the issue... The issue is that he's a bad guy, not that his references are too old. They're not related. If a guy wants to go out and cause problems for providers, that has nothing to do with how old his references are. I can be every bit as much of an ass on a day-old reference as a 2 year old one.
True, I see your point. It's still best to use reference from those you've seen most recently rather than those from years back.
What about guys, like myself, who don't see providers frequently. I hadn't seen a provider for almost 2 yrs. Does that mean that I will never get to see one again? Fortunately, the agencies don't see it your way either, otherwise I'd still be left out in the cold
jcinbp
...I don't think it would be appropriate to request a reference from a lady I saw two years ago. Would she even remember me?
I have taken the approach that I can ask for references roughly equal to the number of times I have seen a lady. This forces me to use references from ladies I have seen recently.
You said it much more gracefully than my frustrated fingers would allow.
I agree with Omega on the principle of hwt "references" are accomplishing.
On the other hand I can agree with the validity of a reference from a provider form over 2 yrs ago. People do change and if the hobbyist needs a refeence they should look to a more recent provider or us RS2000 services.
MDL, gotta disagree about people changing. You've been around for a couple of years, did you treat the last provider you just saw any worse than one you saw a year or two ago? I often hear this argument about "people changing" but honestly, can anyone out there come up with a single example of where a hobbyist started out to be a good boy, and then all the sudden, decided to start being a jerk to providers? I just don't think people's stripes change as much or as fast as anyone thinks. You're either a good guy or not and two years of seeing travelers instead of locals will not likely cause that to change.
Obviously she did remember him though...
As for the references roughly equaling number of visits... Rick, you really are the man, this a great and fair perspective that we should consider.
Omega.... Thanks for your measured and well-thought response to this issue. It shows objectivity and concern for the provider that is looking to minimize their risk by asking others about their specific experience with the hobbyist.
One thing that seems to not have been addressed is the tenor of the initial post.
=================
"I just love taking my time for you, even though you haven't seen me since 2002.
I had to chuckle when I got a reference request from someone who I haven't seen for 2 years. His excuse "I've been seeing the out of towners and they're hard to get ahold of".
Not my problem bud, show some class."
=================
Not sure I would really need to say anything about the attitude shown in the post..... it seems to speak for itself....
sl
Yes, my apologies for being emotional about it. It wasn't called for.
I understand the emotional part... obviously no need to post when feeling 'compromised' - so just let it go. We're not really here to make fun of others.
As I was reading these posts - and I'm a hobbyist - if I am required to provide a reference - maybe I don;t hobby as a result if I feel uncomfortable using someone as a reference. So my money goes toward a new Harly instead... (or a new dinette set)...
The only other question I would have as it relates to all of these posts is....
"Would you have required him to provide a reference to you if he was calling to see you?" - since your logic indicated that he may have changed over the two years since you last saw him.
I would guess - based on my own personal experiences - that the answer would be - No.
sl
You're right. I'd see someone I hadn't seen for 2 years if our past experience was good.
If I had never met him, I would feel uncomfortable with a 2 year old reference. I'd choose a background check over a 2 year old reference.
Sexluver... I didn't take her first post as being emotional as much as being sarcastic... In person, very powerful points can be made by using sarcasm as a legitimate way to highlight the fallacy of what you're arguing against. Unfortunately, it rarely works in written form, especially in discussion boards where the reading parties don't know you well enough to sense what you're up to.
P-O'd... You didn't need to post this under an alias. You're replies and responses were mild-mannered and too non-controversial to need to rely on an alias... I save aliases for when I know I'm gonna get my ass whipped. Sometimes I come on pretty strong on these issues, but this thread felt more like a debate than an argument, and you haven't said anything that needed to be stated anonymously. (However, I would have quickly retracted the comment about Gingko, not sure if it's true or not, but there was nothing debate-like, and nothing to be gained by that.)
-- Modified on 4/7/2004 1:56:14 PM
I understood the sarcasm as I referenced that we are not here to make fun of others. Sarcasm is a weak attempt at humor at someone else's expense. I agree that is what I saw as well....
I also agree that P_Od did fine with almost all of the responses - and I sense her initial post would be quite different after seeing the perspective of the rest of the thread participants....
Again.. cudos on your response to the initial thread and cudos to P_Od for her(?) control on the subsequent comments....
As far as using aliases - I think the rule of thumb should be that if you think you need to use as alias - best you not post.
There have been well known posters that have used aliases - sometimes many times - where it has back-fired... It would only serve to hurt your reputation and your credibility.
sl
sl
-- Modified on 4/8/2004 9:08:59 AM
But, that's beside the point. I know who I am, you don't.
The reason TER allows alias's is for people to post controversial/debatable topics without personal attacks. When I've stepped over the line, I'm sure the mod will step in. BTW, you're out of line LOL. Suits you though...
Just kidding about the skin tags ha-ha You asked for that one!
-- Modified on 4/7/2004 10:03:11 AM
Now that I've taken on the mantle of the lone devil's advocate on this issue, let me be clear on one other point... The best way to get back on the wagon after not seeing locals for quite a while is to go back and see a local you've already seen long ago, and THEN use that as reference.
He still used my name because, well... why not bother me with a reference request since I would remember him LOL.
I remember him because I liked him and invited him to a private group, which spawned into another private group. Of course private groups are never private so I'm hearing he's bashing me in there for being upset and feeling used. Thus the reason no ladies post private info in their "private" groups.
So, it basically comes down to common courtesy. I still contend it's not prudent to accept a reference from 2 years ago. If you still insist that providers should accept 2 year old references, please use 2 year old references and see what type of response you get from the provider you want to see and the provider you're "using"
"I remember him because I liked him"
I didn't know this when I posted before, this really adds far more fire to my argument. This is EXACTLY why he used your name and it is EXACTLY why he's earned a good reference. If he knew you would remember him and that you liked him, then you're EXACTLY the right person to ask for a reference.
The reference equation, to use your own words, should be:
"I remember him because I liked him" = "good reference"
What if the other provider called and you said "Ya know, it's been a long time since I've seen him, but I remember him because I liked him."
That was all that needed to be said. Everybody would have won. You'd have rewarded his good behavior with you. The other provider would have gotten to spend time with what appears to be a quality guy.
-- Modified on 4/7/2004 9:50:04 AM
That's exactly what was said to the provider.
While I am tired of provider whining. I must agree with a reference is a reference is a reference. It serves to help all providers. I am dumbfounded by the well "he hasnt seen me in 2 years" Who the F* cares. There are other providers in this town that will provide a reference with much glee no matter how long it has been since he has seen her. This is good business. The providers who give them have better reputations for good reason. The girls that dont give references or the ones who whine at the "new provider for client stealing" can go F* themselves. I rub your back you rub mine. I like the fact of the providers doing the refs. You sure find out quickly who gives and who doesnt. I will not see the ones that dont anymore. Too much headache and hassle. Maybe this is why Roomservice is so big in some cities. Not sure if this said provider is ********* like some said. If thats the case I sure hope she changes this attitude. That gets around quick.
-- Modified on 4/9/2004 8:57:32 AM
Wow, I totaly agree with you in this post, and that pretty much covers my thoughts. Thanky you!
I wish I could expound on what you said, but I have nothing more to say.
B.O.B.
I normally don't post messages because of paranoai of LE. However, I felt compelled to reply for two reasons. One, as a public apology to a provider I have been guilty of doing a similar thing to and second to offer a perspective that hasn't been given yet.
I believe that there have been good arguements made on both sides but I would like to offer my perspective of why I have been guilty of this type of thing in the past.
First let me state that I have the utmost respect for the provider I have done this to. The only other message I can recall ever posting was a positive review for the provider. I had a great time with her and would love to see her again. Will I? Probably not.
Unlike many of the posters I have very limited discretionary income. Most poster here complain when the price gets above $300. For me $200 is a major splurge that I can normally manage once or twice a year. I therefore am normally limited to taking my chances with the line ads in Twincities Uncovered.
Needless to say most of these women don't ask or give references and I seldom find one that enjoy there company enough to see more than one. So even if I did us one of these women as a reference, it is unlikely they would remember me.
The provider I saw, if I remember correctly normally charges well over $200. I was able to see her because she was running a special and because I work for a company whose product she values an I was able to pay part of the donation with product.
She very graciously offered to see me in the future under similar circumstances. However, I have always felt very uncomfortable doing. I don't like negotiating prices. Part of the reason is my belief that if you are asking for a bargain you are very likely to get a bargain session. With this provider, this wasn't a concern. The other part of my reasoning is that if a provider can get $300, why should I ask her to spend time with me for $200 or less. Kind of like how some people are uncomortable when someone gives them an extremely valuable gift that they don't feel the deserve.
On the one or two of the occasions that I was able to spend $200 and sought to see a provider that requested a reference I use the above mention provider, hoping that she would remember my even though it had been between a year or two since I had my session.
I used her because she was really my only option. I felt she may remember me because like this other fellow, she had also invited me to a private group. I have also tried keeping in touch with her to keep her informed of special 'invite' only sales that our company occasionally has. I had also on occasion picked up product for her at substantial discounts and had seen her briefly at several get togethers that were once coordinated through the board.
I agree that two years is a long time to be asking someone for a reference but when that's the best you have you can only hope for the best. P-Od mentioned that this has been happening to her more frequently. My sin is probably over a year old but if I have been part of the problem that has been built up to this I humbly apologize. I certainly didn't mean any disrepect.
Sorry for the length of this.
T of A
-- Modified on 4/7/2004 12:13:35 PM
Ginkgo
I guess I don't have a huge opinion one way or the other on this subject. I enjoy and try to stay with mostly the same providers ( safer IMO ) but not to say I don't dabble. I just haven't experienced ************* hiding behind alias's in the past. Whoever posted this thread didn't use a name or user name of who she is referencing so I just don't think it's fair you (with or without)proof attach a name to your comments. Just my opinion
" WHY CAN WE ALL JUST GET ALONG MAN"?
-- Modified on 4/9/2004 8:58:29 AM
I agree Red, *********** name should not have been slandered.
-- Modified on 4/8/2004 9:11:25 AM
I've seen several references in this thread to "private groups", something the ladies have. I'm not in any private groups, I'm so out of it I didn't even know there were private groups. I feel like the dorky kid that goes to the prom alone and then can't get any of the girls to dance with him. I want to be in a private group! Will somebody out there please invite me to be in their private group? PLEASE?!
Oh, and what the hell are skin tags anyway??
cya
You should be reading between the lines that is seems so called private groups are not private at all. There are always spies and traitors, always hidden agendas. For expample there is a group just for guys, they too have a few that leak information. Not really a private group now is it. It is just posted information that gets cut and pasted into emails to others. Just can't trust anyone. Guess this is not the sand box of ethics. LOL So don't feel like a dork. What you think you are missing you can always read or hear elsewhere through the grapevine. Think the next thread should read who does references and who does not. Bueller.......Bueller
are you that you don't know what a skin tag is? A growth of skin that hangs off the body (where ever it is growing) and can easily be removed.
This is one of those threads that has lots of good discussion but from here on, do not use any provider's name. PO'd has a right to post under an alias and people are merely speculating as to the real person.
Let's see where this goes.
-- Modified on 4/8/2004 9:13:17 AM
Thanks srvfan... That was my only point because when the names start flying everyone get defensive and practicle discussion seems to end.
I don't post very often but I have to side with the provider on this.
If the person doesn't think enough of the provider to see her in two years but yet admits to seeing other providers he should not expect her to give a reference. He could have seen her first or went somewhere else.
So, by your definition, if I only see a provider once every two years, I need to see the same one?
I am not a frequent hobiest, but I have the utmost respect for anyone that I have ever seen. It would be nice if I ever wanted to see someone new, I might get some help.
By the original post and those that support it, I will never see anybody again that requires a reference (not by my choice), ultimately that might mean the end to my participation in all of this (not a bad thing, in my opinion).
I am saddened by all of this. I don't have a reference, I don't want to (or can't afford to) go out of my way just to get a reference, and by this discussion, even if I did get a reference, it would not be good for much (referring to my infrequent participation.)
I am thinking that the times are leading to my exodus from the hobby. Probably just as well, beer seems to hold a better value.
B.O.B.
I may be beating a dead horse here but, references are for the benifit of all. If you have not seen him in two years, and he was OK, then that is what you pass on about the person. Leave it to them to decide if its OK or too old to be of use.
I understand you may feel a little upset at being passed over for other girls the last two years. But you are not providing a reference for him, but for the lady he wants to see. Hopefully she would do the same for you someday. In this way everybody comes out ahead!
Just my $.02
The Gyppo Man
Any ladies I have seen, please give me a good reference. (no matter how long ago!)
Its NOT because we didn't like you the first time and NOT because we wouldn't want to see you again. Its because we LIKE VARIETY and most of us can't afford to see someone every week so it takes a while to see all the differently ladies that pique our interest. We are all secretly looking for the "perfect one" for us. Of course we will never find her, but the hunt is great! So please don't misunderstand our motives.