I have a dilemma about my ATF, who is also a friend. I'm not sure if I should stop seeing her as a client or not. I don't think she is familiar with TER but if she does read these boards than she'll probably recognize herself and know who I am, but I will keep the details non-specific for her anonymity.
Here's the history: About 3 years ago we met through some social friends. We became close friends. Not "falling for each other" close but "sharing deepest thoughts" close. I was married so our relationship never crossed that line. But we shared our thoughts about everything! At the time she wasn't providing but had seriously considered it, given her financial situation. She is super attractive and very open minded and didn't know anything about the business and was very paranoid about her status with her family and friends. I had been seeing providers for awhile but this was before I knew of TER! So one day, I told her about my hobby. Well, needless to say this started a whole chain of events of my helping her start as a provider. The one thing she did not want to do was have any photos of her. Not even parts. She wanted to keep it "word of mouth". This was tough in the beginning. How the hell do you drum up business without pics or references? I felt bad so I offered to be her first paying client. Knowing that I hobbied, she was okay with it and I could give her feedback on her session. Plus, I was always sexually attracted to her. Bonus!
Now, I have to say this: Because there was monies involved, somehow I didn't feel it was cheating the same as if I were just having an affair. It was biz.
Anyway, it was a little weird for us at first, but she was very good. So good that I decided to drop my other providers and become her first regular. This worked out well. We were supporting each other. I got to see a hot ATF once a week at a bargain deal (compared to current rates) and she got to pay her rent each month.
Finally, one evening at a social gathering of work acquaintances, the subject of the hobby came up amongst a small group of us. I of course, talked about my ATF. I spun the biggest BS story! I described in detail how hot and amazing she was and that she was so exclusive that you have to be referred just to get her number. (never said I was also her friend) Man I felt like such a pimp! Well, it worked becuase by the end of the night, several of the guys were practically begging me for her number. I "hooked them up" and told them after she saw them that they could then only refer her to highest class friends.
This was the starting point of her success. I had told her what I had done and word must have gotten through some pretty high class grapevines. (It always amazes me how people are connected through just a few degrees of separation!) Later she told me somehow, she had rumors of her (non-existent) high profile clientele, before she even began. How cool was that! I don't know how she did it but she played it all off. She soon raised her prices well beyond what myself and many others could possibly afford. She had clients buying her big ticket items and taking her away on vacations...yadda yada. She even started falling for some. Eventually, she would only exclusively see a handful of sugar daddies. She was living the providers ultimate dream. I was so happy for her. And happy for me: She would still see me on the side at the beginning rate. Several times she didn't even want to take my money but I insisted, otherwise I felt like I was having an "affair" instead of just "cheating". But that's a whole other thread!
This was almost a year ago now and since then her small client list has dropped off big time. Not sure if they got bored, wives found out, or went broke. Who knows. They just stopped calling her. And the ones that still see her are sporadic. She still refuses to advertise! In any case, she got used to a lifestyle she can no longer afford. Fortunately she always kept a very part time job to keep up appearances and is debating going full time for the stability of insurance until she can get things going again.
Now I only talk to her when I see her about once or twice a month. We still connect as friends but the sex lately seems kind of lame. Like something we have to get out of the way. But I think it is only with me. Put it this way, If she were anyone else, I wouldn't pay for her, even at my special rate. But she is a friend with whom I've built a rapport and I would feel bad if I stopped helping her. I know she would take it personally. I have expendable income, so the money isn't the problem, but I'd rather spend it on an ATF who physically satisfies me. I don't know how to bring it up easily.
Any suggestions?
I hope she does read these posts, then I wouldn't have to explain myself.
You are afraid of hurting an escorts feelings by leaving her to see other escorts. You may as well be married.
The only thing holding you back is your guilt. The sex with her is no longer great because she isn't into it with you, yet you feel guilty about moving on.
She could lodge a valid complaint that you used her services when things were going well for her and she would not have done business with you otherwise. You could counterclaim that you got her started and if she had done things her way, she would have gotten no clients at all. But, I must question why you are not satisfied by her now and were when she was raking in big dollars, the time to move on would have been then. She need you now for some form of dependable income. The situation now is that she is in the bind that happens to far too many providers, she has gotten used to a big stream of money that is no longer coming in as her clientele have moved on and she made no plans for the day when the money flow would drop. I see a couple of choices, IMO. She can go full time to a day job and shed all of the trappings and expense that she had as a VIP escort. Doing so would be a letdown, but she would maintain control of her finances. The second choice is that she has to drop her resistance to pictures and advertising and figure out how to do those chores in a way that her family and friends would remain unaware of. You can help her if she makes the second choice by doing web research on how other providers set up their pictures to maintain their privacy, there are many ways of doing so. If she stays in the business she should get a website and a working name, she should allow reviews and hold on to her working name as long as she is in the business. Lastly. I do not know you, obviously, and do not know what your own savvy concerning finances are. But you need to talk the lady into saving and investing at least 25% of what she can make in a week when work picks back up. Skilled providers that have decent business plans do make a lot of money, but as I wrote earlier, few of them understand how to retain as much of those earnings as they legally can.
You complain of lackluster performance and no longer want to see her, plus her other regulars stopped seeing her. Maybe she has burnt out and her other regulars noticed the same thing you did.
If you no longer want to see her as a client than you should not. She might need and value your friendship more than your money.
It sounds like the thrill is gone--that's sad, but life goes on, and you aren't responsible for her welfare. She's a big girl now.
You've done so much for her in the past that you shouldn't feel guilty if you stop seeing her and start seeing other ladies who give you more satisfaction.
Just don't do it suddenly. She'd have all kinds of questions, and if you answered honestly that the spark was gone, wow, that's a double whammy to any lady--lose business AND be told a long time regular is no longer interested.
Instead of always seeing her a couple of times a month, make some excuses and drop it down to once a month, then stop altogether (if nothing has changed). By that time, she'll either be busy in a full time civilian job, or will be busy as an escort (by finally advertising)--she won't notice your absence as much.
"Helping her"? Let's review. You have a "friend" with whom you exchange "deepest thoughts". She is in financial straits and attractive and obviously vulnerable and has thought about selling sex for a living. You, out of your infinite compassion (and, oh, yeah, she is "super attractive and very open minded" and you were "always sexually attracted to her"), decide to offer her your prostitution expertise and become her "first regular". You don't say anything about whether this is something she genuinely wants to do or a default financial expedient, probably because it wouldn't occur to you to understand that provider life is terribly difficult for a lot of, but not all women. You just wanted to bone her and giving her money made that ok. Your wife aside, this isn't cheating to you on account of...well, your assertion that it's not. You do some version of the old poke in the ribs and "Hey, buddy, you got to get you some of that" with your pals and her business takes off. It later declines and you now feel that her fucking you at deep discounts from her usual rate just isn't worth it. Oh, my Lord, what to do? Just dump her, pal. You're not her friend and never were and that concept shouldn't even enter into the discussion. You wanted to pimp her and fuck her and you did. Now's the time to kick her boring, unfulfilling ass to the curb. Walk away with that great feeling we all get from betraying our promises to loved ones and reducing other people who trusted and shared intimacy with us to ho's. "I hope she does read these posts, then I wouldn't have to explain myself."...pretty much says it all. There's a word for men who roll a grenade into someone else's life and run away. That word is "pussy".
Maybe it's the irish side of me coming out, but being called a pussy would make me clock you out in a heart beat. Fortunately, being in this cyberspace forum forces me to double think my responses. I have to admit, I never looked at it that way. "...roll a grenade into someone else's life and run away." Decent analogy. I do kind of feel I've done that. But here's the part you are very wrong: I did not / will not run away. I am still trying to keep the friendship. One that existed before this started. We have developed a rapport that is still strong. The only thing I am trying to "run away" from is paying her for sex. (Which I believe has waned because we've been doing it for quite awhile and we're probably too comfortable with each other. Who knows.) If I could help her financially without obligation, I would. She is not the kind of woman who accepts "hand outs". That's why she won't even ask her family for help, and definately would not accept my money without something in return.
Also, let me clarify something. It was SHE who wanted to do this. She was going to do it, with or without me. She is not a moron or a deer in the headlights. She knew exactly what she was getting into. And still does. I happen to be an easier start for her. She got lucky in the beginning. Now she is realizing how difficult it can really be. Yet she still wants to pursue providing! Her choice. More power to her.
And yes, of course I wanted to "bone her". She's hot. Who wouldn't. I was fortunate enough to be in the position that I could. And did. And she was cool with all that. That aside, It's not the reason why we became friends. We became friends because we clicked. Like having a good male buddy, but with a woman's perspective. That's hard to find. If she were someone else, I would care less. I would just drop the whole thing. But it's not that shallow. Basically, I want to maintain a non sexual, non business friendship with her because I know any combination of friend, business, sex, do not mix well. Maybe I was being greedy and wanted it all. But I realize I can't have it all. If I had to pick only one, it would be, friend. And I know she feels the same. We'll see what happens from here.
As for cheating. Everything I've done is cheating. Period. No doubts about that. But there are different levels. Levels to fool our concience into easing our guilt. For example: having an "affair" with someone implies emotions are involved and having a "session" is a physical act with only money involved. "It's just business" sounds easier than "I'm in love with someone else." Either would be grounds for divorce to my wife regardless of how I justify it. But as long as I am able to juggle keeping my wife happy and my selfish indulgence, than I will. Consequences and all.
You can call me a dick, but never call me a pussy.
to ever equate cowardice to it. Pussies are much more open than that.
Are you being a coward? Yes, if you would prefer to have this lady stumble upon your post rather than speaking to her, you are. My best guess is you fear what she might do/say if you talk to her directly, and that again is cowardice. That you hope she just finds your post, means you don't really care about her hurt or disillusionment about your "friendship" and the hurt caused by discovering you don't even think enough of her to tell her to her face how you feel, just that you're not there when it happens. Again, cowardice.
Any hurt caused by your public revelations about your relationship will still cause her any hurt that would have happened had to spoke to her in person, or even over a phone, but with the added pain of you doing it on public message board, and the added issues of you not respecting her or your relationship enough to come out with it, but instead just leaving it for her to find.
I will give your "Irish" grand props for "bravery in ascii" though, since you do not shy away from posturing over offense in text, and typing out a post to let her know the situation...it's just in anything but text where your backbone seems to be lacking.
You say you want to keep your friendship with her, and that it and she means a lot to you, then why does she not mean enough to you to be honest with her? A friendship based on being unable to actually talk to the "friend" isn't really friendship, and therefore nothing for you to keep or maintain.
To state, "Basically, I want to maintain a non sexual, non business friendship with her because I know any combination of friend, business, sex, do not mix well." if you know this, why would you risk the friendship in the first place? I know you have justified it to yourself as, "she was going to do it anyway", "I was an easier start", etc...but really you are just playing the same game with her and yourself, that you do with your wife and yourself on the rationalisations you give about "cheating".
Perhaps what you really need to do is look deep inside yourself and come to terms with how you justify your own cowardice and selfishness to yourself within relationships.
Now, this line confused me, "If I could help her financially without obligation...", so if you could just give her money without having to force yourself to have sex with this "hot" woman that anyone would want to "bone"? Huh? if it's just that, then you shouldn't have wanted to start the business side of the relationship to begin with. I wonder, has some of the "heat" gone out of your sessions because when you started you liked it as you were her first client? and as she went high price you liked it because you were getting a bargain? but now that she has been with others, and now that she isn't demanding the high prices you know longer get a special thrill from the arrangement?
If the quality of her sessions really has lapsed, could it be because she is perhaps a bit down or depressed because of her situation? and isn't that the kind of thing a friend would be thinking about instead of just rather to be spending his money on another provider, because they are too comfortable together? One would think a friend would show actual concern about his friend aside from business relations and getting better from another provider etc. and maybe put aside his own crap in the interest of the well being of a friend? What exactly are you trying to preserve again?
Sounds like maybe what you have with her is a rather one sided friendship, where you get the person you "click" with, and you get the "female perspective", and the enjoyment of her company, but are willing to give little in return, not even actual concern, compassion (unless it allowed you to do what you wanted all along in a way you could ratioalise it yourself, ie:sex with her), or honesty.
So, again, what are you trying to save with this woman? Seems to me, you need to move on, and since it is not really a friendship you don't loose anything, and you free this lady up to find a friend that actually has the capacity to be a friend that can care about her more than himself and his justifications and rationalisations.
I'm Irish myself, pretty good-sized, and not unfamiliar with violence. You "clocking me out in a heartbeat" might not prove to be one of the inevitable and simple tasks in life. But I admire the sentiment and I don't really want to play whose crank is bigger. I took a deliberately provocative line with you because I sensed that you had genuine concern for this woman and I wanted to push you to think differently about her, and about yourself. Here's the deal.
About thirty years ago there occurred an enormously important linguistic change in our language as regards the sexes. Language reflects and shapes reality. What had been common usage in the 50's and 60's in describing adults shifted from "men and girls" to "women and guys". The "man" in the 1950's VP's office could easily be 19 years old and giving orders to a 50 year-old "girl" Twenty years later the 19 year-old "woman" was dating 40 year-old "guys". Neither a "guy" nor a "girl" is to be taken seriously by adults. "Girls" are children. "Guys" are generic and replacable spare parts. "Men" and "Women" are an entirely different matter. Both are to be taken very seriously. And I want you to take your situation seriously.
A "guy" fucks a "girl", pimps her, and kicks her to the curb. A man sees a woman's needs and meets them as best he is able. Her needs almost certainly require you to talk to her honestly. A "guy" won't do that. A man must. You have created a situation in which you are suspended between guy and man. I sympathize, but what are you going to do? You can operate from the heart and soul and your own nature or from a new-born mythology that lets you walk away.
Talk to her. Tell her that you are done as a client and completely available as a friend. Take her to dinner and stroke her fingers. Hold her at the end of the evening and keep your boner to yourself and your hands off her ass. Feel her breathing change and her body softening with trust and prize that. Love her without reference to what you think your own needs are. Therein lies honor, and manhood. Don't be a guy. Be a man. And the outcome will take care of itself.
Good for you. No matter how it turns out (and things often turn out differently than we might wish) your life will feel better and be better for having had balls. And so will hers. I wish you, and her, the best.
Dear Eyescube: I fell for a provider. One that is smart and has ambitions. She has moved on with her career and I do not even get to see her as a provider. I do see her, but only in her chosen profession do I get a glimpse of her. My regret, that I did not tell her that I had personal feelings for her and that she would share in her success with me as a person.
If any of us has a "regular" then we must have some feelings for that person. I have seen some providers, and while they are nice, I did not have a personal feeling for them, and as such would not see them again. It sounds like you care for this person, still, but are mystified as to why this relationship has changed. You should have had a serious conversation with her before this change - and didn't.... but you REALLY need to have one with her now. If ya don't, well, you will not do the right thing. Painful as the conversation may be...
Over time, my ATF and I had slowly become very good friends. The "business" became so difficult for us that we decided that our friendship was more important and we agreed that I was no longer going to be her client. We see each other quite often for lunch, playing golf, but no longer do business together. We are friends, confidants, counselors, lunch mates and golf buddies to each other.
As a very smart lady told me, "you can always find a good provider, but a true friend is rare and worth holding on to".
Sometimes, whether intentional or not, you stumble onto a great friend. Don't screw it up by letting the 'business" get in the way.
1. You pimped for her but didn't take a cut. 2. Even though you paid, this was more of an affair than an ATF. 3. For some reason, you don't find her sexually attractive any more. Has something changed with her appearance, attitude, level of service? Or has something changed inside of you? 4. You are behaving just like her small group of exclusive regulars. Seems like there is more here that meets the eye. 5. It's not your job to "take care" of her or her business. You crossed a lot of lines here but this is perhaps the biggest line. You feel responsible for both her financial success and failure?
My advice. You better start taking care of yourself. You can tell her or not, because I doubt she will understand. But you really haven't done her any favors nor yourself. She is not your responsibility but you do owe her at least an explanation. Pull back from everything. Take a break from the hobby and from seeing her. Three months... minimum. Get your head screwed on straight.
Hey. I'm not throwing rocks here. I have spent my fair share of time screwed up as well. Good luck!
What's this "friendship???" You pimp for her, tell lies about her and she takes advantage of it because you've set her up. You've used each other, and your respect for each other was about as deep as the paper your money was printed on. Now you want to move on because the sex isn't as hot as you'd like? Some friend.
I say do her a favor and get out of her life. You need someone who'll give you your money's worth and she needs someone who'll pay full freight.
Have you considered hiring a pro domme to give you a good spanking? It might be just the right thing for that guilt you have, plus you might get off in a way that won't be as "lame" as with your "ATF."
You have to admit, this is a pretty whiny thread. Are you sure that you want advice, or are you looking for support for a decision you have already made.
No one in your current scenario seems very happy, so just get on with it already. If it makes you feel any better, we're all behind you. Now quit vacilating, go do it, and quit whining about it. Oh and btw, have a nice day.
Face reality. You are paying for one thing only. It no longer is worth it. Move on. If your heart is really with her, how about dumping your wife? I am a bachelor because even the hottest girl in the world gets boring after a while. Dump your wife who must bore you or you would not see the provider, and dump the provider and get on with life. REALITY STRIKES!
tell her you've decided to stop seeing other women on the side for awhile to attend to x personal issue with your wife or family
OR you've decided to reallocate funds to your retirement, kids education or nieces/nephews education
OR that with the length and the level of intimacy of your friendship at this point it's begun to feel like cheating, even with the money involved and you would rather just be friends.
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