time than I can count. And it's something else I'll have to answer for some day.
Two laws already passed, that mandate an ultrasound (to the tune of several hundred dollars) and get this... A law that ALLOWS doctors to lie about the health of the patient's fetus and she caanot sue him/her for it. Two more are expected to be passed that ban private or public insurance (wow. I thought right wingers didn't want the state controlling private business?) And that would require a questionaire where the answers would be posted ONLINE. That's some brazen shit, folks. Unreal. Its pretty apparent its an attempt to make it so expensive that women must leave the state or give birth to children they don't want!
laws that tax themselves so as to support all the unwanted babies until adulthood that THEY are so goddamn determined to save.
The Mid & South West states are like a giant mosh pit of modern Luddites to all practical progress.
A better idea would be to take some tax money and develop a program which actually educates women AND men about the "hazards" of unprotected sex and maybe someday all of these irresponsible dumbasses will eliminate the need for "birth control" abortions.
How many are actually performed because there is something wrong with the fetus or there is a potential danger to the mother? I would imagine that that percentage is extremely, extremely low.
By the way, I've NEVER had a condom break during intercourse.
I am inclined to agree, not with standing forced sex/incest resulting in pregnancy...very rare against abortion as a form of birth control.
However...this is what happens when the country allows Right wing Christian freaks to interfere with everyday life(I don't care what the actual subject is...today abortion, tomorrow some other moral outrage they'll think up to exert more control and wield more power) via legislation.
What should chap your ass is a law giving docs the right to lie to further their own idealogies. This corrupts medicine and is dangerous as hell. Prolife or prochoice nonwithstanding, that's scary!
and this law prohibits even private insurance from paying. I thought righties opposed govt control of healthcare? LOL
It's obvious their screwed up agenda crosses even that boundary(if ever there was one to begin with). They don't seem to care what they have to do to get what they want and what's so freaking scary is that it's happening right now! Are they going to provide for the unwanted children dumped at fire stations and hospitals? Hell no! They have not thought that one out.
I swear, this religious crap is slowly seeping into our lives inch by inch and it seems we are powerless to stop it.
Think about this...what if they really started targeting this hobby? I mean really got into it.
Regardless of how many of these bible thumping hypocrites are seeing providers and other sex workers on the side.
that doesn't provide a 'scape goat' escape from irresponsiblity, I will be glad to debate this issue with you. Otherwise, quit creating excuses for little childrens deaths. Idiocy should not permit infanticide.
murder. What's the difference between killing your baby before or after it's born? I think abortion should only be permitted in the case of rape, incest, or if the birth would jeopardize the life of the mother.
Ditto!
My opinion on the subject mirrors your's JHB. 'Convenience' abortions should be stopped. If a woman wants to truly have control over her body, make damn fucking certain to use a condum, or get on the pill.
Many years ago, I dated a young woman that had aborted 4 times before her 21st birthday, (none of mine). When she said that, the relationship ended that day. I heard later that she eventually enlisted in the USMC. Found it was not to her liking, got pregnant a fifth time, got discharged, and then had another abortion.
I'm amazed at how people can be against the death penalty, but approve of abortion. Don't give a brutal murderer a lethal injection, but it's okay to kill an innocent fetus? yeah, right. WTF.
I used to have a friend that was as close as a sister to me but the friendship "died" for a similar reason. She was dating a friend of mine, (she and I had no romantic ties), and things seemed to be going fine between the two of them and I was quite happy for them. Suddenly, she gets back together with her old boyfriend which devastated my friend. He later told me that she had gotten pregnant by him and had an abortion without consulating him. I didn't doubt my friend for he had no reason to lie and I also knew based on a conversation I'd had with her that she didn't like the feel of condoms and preferred not to use them with her partners. I totally lost respect for her and just kind of let the relationship fade away. Been over a year since I spoke to her last, but she has no idea that I know she aborted and I never told anyone.
that always crop up when discussing this issue.
To paint every woman who does this as someone who has numerous abortions, and sleeps around, etc. typical.
Let me tell you a few stories.
A woman who had 4 children already, stayed home like a good mom is supposed to (according to her religion) and cared for the home. Her husband left her one day out of no where, pregnant with her 5th child. No job, no skills.
A woman in 1968 who had 3 children, and found herself pregnant weeks after her husband dumps her for another woman. A housewife in rural NC.
Abortion is illegal.
A woman who had cancer, recovered, and in remission. Was told she was sterile, and so never used birth control with her SO. For years, it worked. Seven years AFTER she was told she was sterile, she got pregnant, while in the middle of nursing school.
A 16 yr old girl in highschool gets a little tipsy one night at a friends house, and has only the 3rd sexual experience of her life, with a condom that went KAPLOOEY.
These stories were all true, and are about 2 relatives, my best friend, and....myself.
All with one exception were in committed relationships that went sour, or found themselves in a dilemma they didnt ask for.
I went with two of these women for their abortions, and the story in 1968 was my aunt, who, bc she couldnt do it legally, hit herself over and over with a book in the abdomen til she miscarried, then went to the ER and said she "fell down the stairs". The party girl was me. And while I punished myself for getting a little drunk, I was prepared with a condom and I remember it breaking to this DAY. That was 23 yrs ago. Perhaps it was old? I do not know. But all I could think was...I am gonna be punished for the next 18 yrs bc a condom BROKE? I barely knew the guy. and while I dont advise acting as I did, I was a child and you get a pass for being stupid at that age.
My point is... the women are sluts routine is tired. Most women who chose to abort are not loose and immoral. They found themselves in situations they didn't dream of.
Or simply remove all PV intercourse...the best birth control ever. Concentrate on other forms of sexual relief...but how many men would stick around for that?
If its murder then the circumstances don't matter. Think on that.
time than I can count. And it's something else I'll have to answer for some day.
If abortion is murder, how can you justify murdering an innocent child because his mother was raped? How can you decide whether the mother's life is more important than the child's?
This perspective is COMPLETELY illogical. On the one hand, you claim that abortion is wrong because it's the taking of an innocent life, a life which is equally as viable and (presumably) sacred as the life of the mother. On the other hand, you claim that there are cases in which it is just too inconvenient to allow the child to be born.
If abortion is murder, then it's murder whether the mother was raped or not. It's murder whether the fetus is the product of incest or not. It's murder whether the life of the mother is in danger or not.
You can't have it both ways, logically at least. But that's never stopped you righties from supporting the killing of children in war, either.
Apparently you didn't read my post very well. The OK law allows a doctor to LIE to a patient about her ultrasound results AND prohibits her from suing if anything goes amiss due to the lie. Apparently right to lifers have no problems with corrupting medicine in order to insure fetuses get gestated. There's more to this than just the abortion issue.
that you believe all doctors tell their patients the truth.
How would you explain planned parenthoods abortion numbers?
How would you explain doctor kick-backs?
How would you explain medical networking? Referals to specific specialists regardless of qualifications?
I understand your concerns. Doctors should be liable for telling lies. Actually they are. Just not within the secular realm.
So, are you OK with all the civilian deaths caused by wars, especially wars such as Iraq which were clearly avoidable, to say the least?
How many kids have you adopted to save them from this 'infanticide'?
Oops. That responsibility thing kind of boomerangs on the self-righteous, doesn't it? Why does the anti-abortion crowd only care about these children before they are born?
care more for animal rights than those of children?
We could do this all day.
It is true that prolifers, with a few exceptions, dont care much for children once they are here. I was at a walmart once with my two kids (whose father didn;t pay support) who were very young at the time. A relative allowed me to use her food stamp card bc we had no food. A woman muttered something about "welfare bastards" behind me, which took every ounce of my being to not say something to the bitch. (I was working, just made "too much money" for assistance, although I only made $250 a week with TWO kids) as I was walking to the car, I seen her and her kids getting in a van, with prolife stickers on it. Amazing. Apparently the attitude was "have your kids just keep them away from me". Such attitudes tend to be common among anti-aborts. and for the record, I dont care more for animal rights above REAL LIVING BORN children. But prolifers put a embryo above a real living born female adult! I wish there was some middle ground but there doesn't seem to be any.
There is no such thing as a pro-abortion crowd. That's a line that anti-abortion extremists use to color their opponents. I believe that women should not have their choice to have an abortion taken away. the real world is complicated and abortions occur for many reasons....most are valid. Not one woman I know that has had an abortion ever said is was an easy decision. In fact they agonized over it. What what the anti-abortion crowd fails to recognize is that life is complicated and that we all make decisions which are sometimes the "lesser of two evils"
Until such time when we can truly educated all our our children about reproductive health, provide easy access to contraception to include a male contraception and women easy access to Plan-B in case mistakes happen, then there will always be a need for abortion. If the anti-abortion crowd and the religious right supported easy access to the things I daresay that the need for abortions would drop significantly. If you happen to care, many European countries have lower rates of abortions than this nation...and why is that? They have an ADULT perception of sex.
Notice how nobody commented on my stories above? Since they didn't show simple "loose women" who just have multiple abortions for the hell of it, and did show the complications of real life, they got ignored. Prolifers oft like to demonize women who choose not to gestate under and all circumstances.
as long as you engage in such red herrings.
If you stick to the issue of whether human life has any sanctity and how the anti-abortion crowd works so hard to eliminate programs (such as public education for god's sake!!!) which enhance the quality of said human lives, then we won't have to do this very long at all.
I noticed you didn't answer my questions.
Both sides will always piss into the wind on this issue.
Someone who condones killing babies will NEVER convince an anti-abortionist that their side has a valid point.
This issue is just as concrete,in nature,as the Christian/non Christian arguement.
Just agree to disagree.
As I said before, the law is settled and you are on the 'wrong' side of that. Sorry if that causes you some angst, but that's the way it is.
As for nature, about 30% of pregnancies end in spontaneous miscarriage. Seems nature has a gross disregard for the sanctity of human life.
As for the Christian/nonChristian argument, the Bible doesn't mention abortion and in most cases presumes that life begins at birth. Out of the more than 600 laws of Moses, none deal with abortion.
My questions still remain unanswered, though. If you are such a proponent of the sanctity of life, how many children have you adopted in order to save them from abortion? Talk is cheap.