"In any event, no one ever says, "I believe X, if you don't you aren't American,"
Ann Coulter actually accused people who didn't support Bush's war in Iraq as "traitors", and Beck and Limbaugh have openly accused Obama of being a socialist... If that's not saying that if you "don't believe X, you aren't American", I don't know what is...
For more than the past year, I have heard many politicians and their supporters talking about "Our America" and "patriotism." My question to the folks here is what the fuck are they talking about?
Do they actually believe that those who do not believe as they do are not American? Do they actually believe that the only patriots are people who believe the same things they do?
If the answer to each of those questions is yes, do those people not believe that the country was founded on the theory that reasonable minds may differ and therefore in our country, the majority shall rule? Do these so-called fundamentalists not know about the tremendous idealogical splits between the Jeffersonians and Hamiltonians?
I am at a loss to understand what's going on with these issues, please help.
First, both sides have this tendency. While the examples are obvious on the right, 18 months ago the bumper sticker message was "dissent is patriotic." This did not mean those who didn't dissent were not. (Suddenly, dissent is border-line treason, according to Pelosi. Wha happen?"
In any event, no one ever says, "I believe X, if you don't you aren't American," as you posit.
However, there are certain ideas that are traditionally "American ideas." This does not mean that you aren't American if you don't have them, or only Americans have them. It means that certain ideas have been like read threads through history.
For example, de Toquville commented on the tendency of Americans to form charitable societies more than other nations. Americans first looked to local resources to solve problems. Charity was not supported by a handful of very rich, as in Europe who build a hospital, but by masses of society that gave 5 or 20 dollars to build a local school, hospital, or art gallery. (Yes, Rockerfeller donated a few million, but a few million donated $100.)
The "Amercian way," was first to look local, then state, then federal.
This is a trait that is more pronounced in America. The easiest way describe is short hand is call it an "American trait."
NO, AGAIN, this does not mean only Americans do it or you aren't American if you don't give.
Now, the flip side is some people would have the fed as the first source for solutions. "Everyone" would be entitled to college tuition from the feds. This would inevitably mean that people would first apply to the feds. If that happens, why should I donate to the scholarship fund at my alma mater?
This doesn't mean people who propose this idea are not Americans. It just means that traditionally Americans have looked in other areas as a source of first help.
This is a quick unedite attempt to explain. I hope that clarifies.
-------Samuel Johnson
" No one went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people "----HL Mencken
Great quotes certainly endure, don't they ?
"In any event, no one ever says, "I believe X, if you don't you aren't American," as you posit."
I disagree. I hear it all the time. I often hear such remarks while sitting in a restaurant.
Sarah Palin explicitly and implicitly charged that Barack Obama was not one of us, meaning not a true American, and of course the McCain campaign allowed her to do it.
"In any event, no one ever says, "I believe X, if you don't you aren't American,"
Ann Coulter actually accused people who didn't support Bush's war in Iraq as "traitors", and Beck and Limbaugh have openly accused Obama of being a socialist... If that's not saying that if you "don't believe X, you aren't American", I don't know what is...
and Americans should always be on the watch for fascism in their mists.
-- Modified on 2/18/2010 7:31:44 AM
Jingoism is equally a trait of communism. Look at the USSR. I have a banner that they used to hang in first grade classes with a baby picture of Lenin and the slogan (in Russian) "We shall all be little Lenins."
The current master of N. Korea is known as "The Beloved Leader."
How about serving my favorite meal of Dictator Under Glass at the Tombs of Lenin, Mao, and Ho.
The parades of Revolution Day. The Komsomol (Youth groups) of the USSR and the similar groups in every communist and socialist nation.
Even art in communist and socialist countries is "patriotic." Didn't you ever see the art, ballet, statutes, paintings, movies, etc from China, Russia. ("The Red Poppy" ballet is just the first one to pop to mind.)
To say jingoism is a characerist of fascism ignores half the world. But what would one expect?
...but I think it's fair to say that someone can be jingoistic and not be a fascist. And I certainly agree that many communists were jingoistic.
Good point Phil.
Jingoism/Patriotism. & Don't forget Stalin.
Still examples in this country abound : "freedom fries" , Sarah Palin talking about areas in the country where "real Americans" live. That loony right-wing bitch, Congresswoman Michelle Bachman, saying that DEM members of Congress should be "Investigated because they're not patriotic Americans". Cmon, Phil, it come from the American right as well.
His point implied a one-sidedness. "X is a trait of Y" implies that Z doesn't have the trait. All I was saying was that it was not one-sided.
To do that, I stressed the other side. I never denied that fascists also have the trait. I don't think that saying, "The other party does it also," implies the first party doesn't.
I know the history of the Nazi Youth and comparable groups as well, but that would not have been pertinent to the conversation.
Also, it is a nice cliche to say that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundral, but it is also the property of thousands of Americans who gave their lives on the beaches of Normandy, and it is the property of a million other good and brave people.
Just because a few people mis-use it does not mean that there is anything wrong with it.
& I know quite a few other vets who don't engage in mindless,blind patriotism-------they don't HAVE to----they have nothing to prove----as for Palin,Bachman & their ilk---well, reasonable minds can draw inferences. They are just the modern icarnations of Sen. Joe Mccarthy who was a truly vile charcter.Too bad so much of the far right seems to be taking their "cues" from them--------along with the likes of Limbaugh, Hannity & Beck.
I didn't say that patriotism isn't mis-used. I didn't say that it isn't mis-used by the right. I didn't say scoundrals don't mis-use it. I am not saying that patriots, like your dad, may be quiet about it.
Indeed, one of the people I always admired was an uncle of mine (now passed away) who was at Normandy and all he did after the war was come home, get a job, raise a family, and live his life.
Nothing you are saying disagrees with or disputes anything I said. Willy said that patriotism was a trait of the right. Someone else said repeated the cliche that it is the last refuge of scoundrals.
ALL I SAID was that other people who are not fascists mis-use it, and it is also an attribute of good people. And that seems to spur disagreement.
I don't understand what I said that spurs debate.
It is a tool used to create an artificial barrier based (mostly) on unimportant issues. Those who agree on one side are "us" those who are on the other are "them."
Tying patriotism to a given issue is a way to capture the sorts of feelings that will inspire one man to kill another in defense of the nation. And by capturing that feeling, you automatically dehumanize the opposition and beatify your own group.
Now, your opponents don't simply have a different perspective -- they are actively evil.
This also allows the invoker of patriotism to paint this battle as an epic battle of good vs evil. It allows participants to gain self-esteem through association. Now, merely by believing the right things, they are good and worthwhile. Merit without effort. Priceless.
The whole point is to inspire loyalty and action that otherwise might not have occured.
This is a tool used by right, left, in-between and anyone who wants to inspire action and loyalty. It is a hallmark of the authoritarian mindset common to both fascism and communism. It was a call-to-arms during the War between the States on both sides.
Obviously, and rationally, it is flawed. It has no real reasoning behind it.
But those who manipulate are not looking for reasoning -- they are looking for results. They are looking for loyal foot-soldiers, not academic review.
Those who manipulate likely realize quite well that the other side is not unpatriotic, evil, or flawed. But admitting that would not serve their purposes very well.
There is no "active evil" behind Islamic extremist? That's just the kind of stupidity that has Obama and his stooge Holder falling like a rock in the polls.
If one were to say that all Muslims are bad and should be killed, you might have a point like all Germans were not bad just the Nazi's. Unfortunately, to get at the Nazi's, innocent Germans had to be killed. Today as we see in Afghanistan the enemy Taliban, the worst kind of extremist in the world today, are using innocent Afghans as human shields. I Agree that we should make every effort to protect the innocent Afghans but not at the expense of American lives. If a small unit of Americans are under fire by a larger force and that larger force has civilians as shields and the American force can not retreat without taking casualties, then an airstrike is called for and should comply with any rules of engagement that are in force.
-- Modified on 2/18/2010 9:45:15 AM
What I am saying is that MOST often, patriotism is MISUSED as a tool of crass manipulation.
I'm not saying we shouldn't beat the shit out of people who intend us harm.
& who said there were no terrorist elements in that movement ? Obama is dropping in the polls because of the economy. Do you see "Black U.N. helicopters" buzzing over your house ?-------