Phoenix

Mesa Bust, Stupidity and Recriminations.
Eggs_over_easy 1518 reads
posted

Good lord we are a contentious bunch here. Setting aside the recriminations on the thread below, I think it's very important that people who engage in this hobby have a better understanding of how to interact with law enforcement. Below are some key points. For those with short attention spans, ADHD or just too lazy to read, scroll down for the takeaways.  

If the police stop you and start asking you questions, you are being questioned in a non-custodial environment. What does that mean? It mean that whatever you say can be used against you without you having been read your Miranda rights. At this point you are free to leave and are not obligated to give officers any information other than your identity. Here is the key phrase you should remember. "Officer am I under arrest? Am I free to go?"

What if the police handcuff you or say you can’t leave? Are you under arrest? Not just yet. You have just been placed into Investigative Detention and the officer must have a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed or is about to be committed. An officer can hold you for a short time while he investigates his suspicions. How long is this? It depends on if this is  a traffic stop or a felony investigation?  The time can be shorter or longer depending. Anything you say can be used against you. You are still under no obligation to give the officers any information. If the officers say you can’t leave here is the key phrase. "I want to talk to an attorney before I make a statement.”  

If the officer formally arrests you he must have probable cause or some form of proof that a crime has been or was about to be committed and then they must read you your Miranda rights and everything you say can be used against you. You are under no obligation to give the officers any information other than your identity. Key phrase here, “I want an attorney.”

See the common thread here? At any time you are talking to the police anything you say can be used against you. How do you combat that?  

Shut the fuck up! It’s just that simple. Keep in mind that everything I just told you is perfectly legal for you to do and you are simply exercising your rights as a citizen of the U.S.  

If the police start talking to you, your best course of action will be to remain silent other than the words laid out above. The police are not your friends  per se. I know a lot of police officers both former and active and they are good people, but when it comes to your freedoms you need to know where their authority starts and ends.  

The police can lie to you when they talk to you. They can threaten and intimidate you in an attempt to get you to implicate yourself in a crime. They can tell you you’re not a suspect and just need a bit of information and then they will let you go but as soon as you implicate yourself in a crime they will arrest you. Remember, you are under no obligation to help them.

Ok long rant? Yes absolutely. Here’s the take away.  Talking to the police will never and I repeat will NEVER help you. If the police have enough evidence against you they will arrest you regardless of what you say so why help them out? If they don’t have enough evidence and you don’t offer any up to them then they will eventually let you go. Is it a nerve racking and terrifying experience? Absolutely it is and I speak from experience.  

No I'm not a lawyer and every situation can be nuanced but this is a good framework and you are always better off staying silent if the police suspect you of a crime. You cannot talk your way out of an arrest. You can only dig the hole deeper

Posted By: Eggs_over_easy
Good lord we are a contentious bunch here. Setting aside the recriminations on the thread below, I think it's very important that people who engage in this hobby have a better understanding of how to interact with law enforcement. Below are some key points. For those with short attention spans, ADHD or just too lazy to read, scroll down for the takeaways.    
   
 If the police stop you and start asking you questions, you are being questioned in a non-custodial environment. What does that mean? It mean that whatever you say can be used against you without you having been read your Miranda rights. At this point you are free to leave and are not obligated to give officers any information other than your identity. Here is the key phrase you should remember. "Officer am I under arrest? Am I free to go?"  
   
 What if the police handcuff you or say you can’t leave? Are you under arrest? Not just yet. You have just been placed into Investigative Detention and the officer must have a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed or is about to be committed. An officer can hold you for a short time while he investigates his suspicions. How long is this? It depends on if this is  a traffic stop or a felony investigation?  The time can be shorter or longer depending. Anything you say can be used against you. You are still under no obligation to give the officers any information. If the officers say you can’t leave here is the key phrase. "I want to talk to an attorney before I make a statement.”  
   
 If the officer formally arrests you he must have probable cause or some form of proof that a crime has been or was about to be committed and then they must read you your Miranda rights and everything you say can be used against you. You are under no obligation to give the officers any information other than your identity. Key phrase here, “I want an attorney.”  
   
 See the common thread here? At any time you are talking to the police anything you say can be used against you. How do you combat that?  
   
 Shut the fuck up! It’s just that simple. Keep in mind that everything I just told you is perfectly legal for you to do and you are simply exercising your rights as a citizen of the U.S.  
   
 If the police start talking to you, your best course of action will be to remain silent other than the words laid out above. The police are not your friends  per se. I know a lot of police officers both former and active and they are good people, but when it comes to your freedoms you need to know where their authority starts and ends.  
   
 The police can lie to you when they talk to you. They can threaten and intimidate you in an attempt to get you to implicate yourself in a crime. They can tell you you’re not a suspect and just need a bit of information and then they will let you go but as soon as you implicate yourself in a crime they will arrest you. Remember, you are under no obligation to help them.  
   
 Ok long rant? Yes absolutely. Here’s the take away.  Talking to the police will never and I repeat will NEVER help you. If the police have enough evidence against you they will arrest you regardless of what you say so why help them out? If they don’t have enough evidence and you don’t offer any up to them then they will eventually let you go. Is it a nerve racking and terrifying experience? Absolutely it is and I speak from experience.  
   
 No I'm not a lawyer and every situation can be nuanced but this is a good framework and you are always better off staying silent if the police suspect you of a crime. You cannot talk your way out of an arrest. You can only dig the hole deeper.  
 

Good post, just wanted to add a point of clarification regarding the Miranda warning requirements.  The Miranda warning must be given during any point in which the defendant is not free to go.  Courts will look to what a reasonable person would believe whether or not a defendant is being detained or not.  So any non-voluntary, non-consensual, custodial interrogation would require a defendant to be given a Miranda warning.  There are as you stated differences between investigative detention for a civil traffic stop vs. an investigative detention for a criminal investigation which have been recognized by courts.  So in general whether a reasonable person would believe he is free to go would be the standard.  However, in Mesa specifically, with incidents of subjects being shot while crawling on the ground, reasonable people at least in Mesa would assume they automatically are not free to go and generally should as you advise, demand to be free to go and if the demand is not met by the government then to follow up the demand with a demand for an attorney.  

Posted By: Buddy2012
 
   
Posted By: Eggs_over_easy
Good lord we are a contentious bunch here. Setting aside the recriminations on the thread below, I think it's very important that people who engage in this hobby have a better understanding of how to interact with law enforcement. Below are some key points. For those with short attention spans, ADHD or just too lazy to read, scroll down for the takeaways.    
     
  If the police stop you and start asking you questions, you are being questioned in a non-custodial environment. What does that mean? It mean that whatever you say can be used against you without you having been read your Miranda rights. At this point you are free to leave and are not obligated to give officers any information other than your identity. Here is the key phrase you should remember. "Officer am I under arrest? Am I free to go?"  
     
  What if the police handcuff you or say you can’t leave? Are you under arrest? Not just yet. You have just been placed into Investigative Detention and the officer must have a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed or is about to be committed. An officer can hold you for a short time while he investigates his suspicions. How long is this? It depends on if this is  a traffic stop or a felony investigation?  The time can be shorter or longer depending. Anything you say can be used against you. You are still under no obligation to give the officers any information. If the officers say you can’t leave here is the key phrase. "I want to talk to an attorney before I make a statement.”    
     
  If the officer formally arrests you he must have probable cause or some form of proof that a crime has been or was about to be committed and then they must read you your Miranda rights and everything you say can be used against you. You are under no obligation to give the officers any information other than your identity. Key phrase here, “I want an attorney.”  
     
  See the common thread here? At any time you are talking to the police anything you say can be used against you. How do you combat that?    
     
  Shut the fuck up! It’s just that simple. Keep in mind that everything I just told you is perfectly legal for you to do and you are simply exercising your rights as a citizen of the U.S.    
     
  If the police start talking to you, your best course of action will be to remain silent other than the words laid out above. The police are not your friends  per se. I know a lot of police officers both former and active and they are good people, but when it comes to your freedoms you need to know where their authority starts and ends.    
     
  The police can lie to you when they talk to you. They can threaten and intimidate you in an attempt to get you to implicate yourself in a crime. They can tell you you’re not a suspect and just need a bit of information and then they will let you go but as soon as you implicate yourself in a crime they will arrest you. Remember, you are under no obligation to help them.  
     
  Ok long rant? Yes absolutely. Here’s the take away.  Talking to the police will never and I repeat will NEVER help you. If the police have enough evidence against you they will arrest you regardless of what you say so why help them out? If they don’t have enough evidence and you don’t offer any up to them then they will eventually let you go. Is it a nerve racking and terrifying experience? Absolutely it is and I speak from experience.    
     
  No I'm not a lawyer and every situation can be nuanced but this is a good framework and you are always better off staying silent if the police suspect you of a crime. You cannot talk your way out of an arrest. You can only dig the hole deeper.    
 

I agree, you have the right to remain silent and the right to an attorney use both. Tell the lady the same thing and pay for her attorney, it's cheap money in the scheme of things.

Fessing up, will not get you break or an act of kindness on the LEO's part

Your real name and address is all your obligated to share.

Granted, if you don't answer the questions, they will detain you regardless.

Respectfully request that you be allowed to contact your attorney if they hold you.  When they ask why, again, simply repeat, "I'd like to respectfully request I be allowed to contact my attorney".  Those are THE ONLY words you are safe in stating.  

Let your attorney do the talking.  If you have the money to play, you have the money to pay, an attorney, NOT court costs and fines.

Better still, stop w/ the TOFFT shit and the gambling.  All of us understand the thrill and excitement.  We understand that all people like to shop around.  We understand that people shop for many different reasons.  But when its a dicey product to begin with, why convolute the purchase from a vendor that may or may not be a shyster??  

I, personally, do not understand that side of the consumer.

What do you do if you don't happen to have an attorney beforehand?  You tell LE nothing, get taken downtown and get one phone call, who do you call?

Better call Saul

Posted By: mtnduck8
What do you do if you don't happen to have an attorney beforehand?  You tell LE nothing, get taken downtown and get one phone call, who do you call?

You can have them get an attorney for you. Would be court appointed.    You tell the CA to work on getting you bonded out, the find one once you're released.  

Posted By: mtnduck8
What do you do if you don't happen to have an attorney beforehand?  You tell LE nothing, get taken downtown and get one phone call, who do you call?

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