That is the more interesting question here.
I heard somewhere that 13 year old girls are pretty locked and loaded in their mind set that they have to snag a man/marry. I had an interesting conversation with a cabbie in Long Island about why wasn't I married. "No husband? No boyfriend? Why??" Oh Lord, how I do enjoy telling them how much I enjoy being alone. (He never got it.) Sure I get misty eyed at hearing the National Anthem, and seeing young couples necking on street corners, but at the end of the day I enjoy letting a good fart out and not having to apologize to anyone. I like not having to report to anyone. I love to dissapear. I like to scratch my ass while I stare into the fridge.
Manipulative women are not stupid. They just don't want to do all the hard work. They like to control others. I had a friend, female, that was so manipulative that I did not even catch half of the crap she threw my way. In retrospect I see how she put my life in danger several times because she would rather have me deal with the dirty details of her life than herself. It really hit me one day when she had me hold her soft drink, because she didn't want to. It just blew my mind. She didn't need me to do that. She just didn't want to hold it.
In general with other things ... if I refused, threats would escalate. Karma finally came and knocked on her door. I have been wary of women since.
Many powerful women are often looking at each person they come into contact with as a person of possible use. They find out what they want to know and file it away for later use. Some people call them resourceful, I call them good at inserting the round peg in the round hole, only they have Jack do it for them. Jack doesn't figure out this till later because he is happy to be of use, and needed/wanted. I guess I spoiled all my former boyfriends rotten, I never let them do anything for me. I cooked 3X a week and gave them a BJ every day lol....
Basically to make a long story short: the post is correct, but it is too simplistic. How do women learn how to manipulate?
so, I am going to post it, as requested. I'm just the Post-er.
So, what they wanted me to ask was whether or not you know women with this 'ability' whether inside the Hobby, or out?
The Manipulative Woman
"Most men are starving for a woman to feed their egos, making him feel like he's the best. Successful men are so vulnerable and easy to get to and control that it's hard to understand why some women think men are so difficult. They're basically mechanical, loved-starved, defensive little boys. If you remember that, act accordingly and limit your expectations, you can get next to almost any man. "Men have "blind spots" in relating to women and none more clearly demonstrates their personal helplessness and potential self-destructiveness than the compelling power the insincere, manipulative woman has over an otherwise seemingly intelligent man. Consequently in vulnerable moments of loneliness, or the need for validation, the woman who understands what a man "needs" and gives it to him, can side tract him from his course and take over his life. The ability of the manipulative woman to attract successful, intelligent men is an expression of men's deeper anxieties over personal closeness and the fear of losing control by getting too involved. Because men seek relationships they can "control" and that give them ego gratification and the feeling of real love without genuine personal interaction or demands, they are vulnerable to the woman who is not interested in a relationship either, but wants her needs met, and knows how to give men what they need. She "knows" his vulnerability and limitations and capitalizes on them. The manipulative woman is an expression of a man's defensively inflated yet very vulnerable ego that, in personal relationships prevents him from distinguishing false responses from those that are sincere... thus the manipulative woman is an expression of the tragic flaw that lies at the core of his masculinity. The men most vulnerable to the manipulative woman are those who are the most out-of-touch, egotistic, sexually compulsive, immature, self-centered, unable to love and relate personally, aggressive, insecure and desperate”.
OK..this person is interested in opening up the comments..
There is probably some truth in all of this, but probably in the same way there's truth in a what Dionne Warwick's psychic friends tell you.
"Men are starving for a woman to feed their egos"-- Everyone likes to have their egos stroked.
"Successful men are vulnerable"-- but these are the same people described as "out of touch, egotistic, ... immature,... unable to love and relate personally, ... desperate". I'm not sure that it's successful men who are vulnerable.
"Love-starved, defensive little boys"- Not guilty here.
"Men have blind spots"- Guilty.
"Anxieties over personal closeness"- Cliche. Not guilty here.
"Seek relationships they can control" but this is followed by "woman who is not interested in a relationship". OK, is there a relationship or not.
____
OK, so back to the real question, are there women with this 'ability'? Probably. Could be my current provider of choice. But she would be the first. And although I fear it's true, I don't let it get to me. And I haven't done anything for her that is beyond my reach.
All this brings the flip-side, which is "why would a 'successful' man (both professionally and in loving relationships) want to 'hobby'"? It's a question I ask myself and others.
That is the more interesting question here.
I heard somewhere that 13 year old girls are pretty locked and loaded in their mind set that they have to snag a man/marry. I had an interesting conversation with a cabbie in Long Island about why wasn't I married. "No husband? No boyfriend? Why??" Oh Lord, how I do enjoy telling them how much I enjoy being alone. (He never got it.) Sure I get misty eyed at hearing the National Anthem, and seeing young couples necking on street corners, but at the end of the day I enjoy letting a good fart out and not having to apologize to anyone. I like not having to report to anyone. I love to dissapear. I like to scratch my ass while I stare into the fridge.
Manipulative women are not stupid. They just don't want to do all the hard work. They like to control others. I had a friend, female, that was so manipulative that I did not even catch half of the crap she threw my way. In retrospect I see how she put my life in danger several times because she would rather have me deal with the dirty details of her life than herself. It really hit me one day when she had me hold her soft drink, because she didn't want to. It just blew my mind. She didn't need me to do that. She just didn't want to hold it.
In general with other things ... if I refused, threats would escalate. Karma finally came and knocked on her door. I have been wary of women since.
Many powerful women are often looking at each person they come into contact with as a person of possible use. They find out what they want to know and file it away for later use. Some people call them resourceful, I call them good at inserting the round peg in the round hole, only they have Jack do it for them. Jack doesn't figure out this till later because he is happy to be of use, and needed/wanted. I guess I spoiled all my former boyfriends rotten, I never let them do anything for me. I cooked 3X a week and gave them a BJ every day lol....
Basically to make a long story short: the post is correct, but it is too simplistic. How do women learn how to manipulate?
There's probably many arguments to be made about how we "learn" our adult behavior in the sand box. Gee if I do this I get this response. If I do it this way then the response will change to this. The perceptive kids learn quickly.
But after watching the women in my life I think they learn it best from the maternal figures in their lives. whether it's mom, grandma, auntie. Whoever the most influential woman is in a girls life I believe will leave an indelible stamp on them. If they see that manipulation is the key to getting what "mom" wants then they will incorporate that into their lives and perfect it by adulthood.
Sure this is anecdotal but when I've talked about this with friends and relatives it seems to be VERY widespread. Surely I don't know the only guys who have experienced this? I'm not down on moms. I'm just answering the question of NetM. I think a guy can learn a lot by watching the relationships of his intendeds parents. The love of your life may not turn into her mom but she's certainly learned a thing or two and you might want to take a few notes.
The first paragraph, aside from being totally hilarious (scratch and stare is probably better than scratch and sniff, however! LOL), is really quite true.
For 10 years, my hairdresser bugged me about being single and couldn't 'get it' either that I was happy just being me! A cultural thing in her case, for sure.
Can also completely relate to the second paragraph. I can recall many girls like this and must say that the most manipulative are those I've worked with, or for.
Saw the old Hayley Mills movie "Parent Trap" on the plane and I remember how much I loved that movie as a kid. But, seeing it now, I was shocked at how manipulative every female in the movie was! It really bothered me to see them portrayed that way, yet if you look at a lot of movies or sitcoms from the 60's, you'll notice that commonly. Hmmm..
And loved your last paragraph. You describe the workplace entirely!
And I agree with you: here's my manipulation: I make him King; he makes me Queen. It works..
Yep, I agree..how do they become, or learn to manipulate, and why?
It is what we see at home with our parents. Manipulation is just a form of Sadism.
Lets face it, men go to school, get jobs, make money, get married, go to war, drive a fast car, wear a bad rug, save $$$ for a provider, for what?, a few minutes a week of sex?, if they are lucky? (when you add it all up, it equates to only a few minutes of actual sex)
Women, put on makeup, carry babies, cook, clean, diet, hold their farts, scratch in private, bleed for four days every 28, lay on their backs for what? a few minutes of pleasure?
That is the definition of masochism if you ask me. Just V E R Y slowly.
Marriage and relationship is and can be one long session of S&M. I humiliate you, you humiliate me. I tie you up spiritually, mentally and physically, and only let you free for a few minutes a day, week, month… you do the same to me.
We are all programmed to think suffering is love. That pain is to be endured for a few minutes of pleasure every few days, week or months.
Love is supposed to be free, without strings or attachments and especially expectations. It thrives on freedom. Love starts with your self.
The other day I met on the bus a very wise four year old, she said to me, "tooting is good!"
Never realized how perceptive NM was til this post
music to your ears and perfume to your nostrils.
Tally-Ho!
Watching my siblings' children grow up, I've been frequently surprised at how different the play is when the boys will play by themselves. When the boys and girls play together, invariably, it's the girls who decides what is to be played, and what role the boys will have. In this situation, the boys frequently have no idea and take all of their cues from the girls.
When I watched my nephew and niece pay together (they were cousins, not siblings) they played house, and she told him what his role was as husband. She corrected the "dialogue" he supplied (I can't quote them. They were both 3, and I couldn't understand it.) Until she told him to say something, and he refused. Thus, I think, her young mind determined what limits she had. I learned a lot watching those two.
But watching and hearing about young children playing within the family, what the girls get the boys to do is always an amusing story.
/Zin
-- Modified on 8/16/2004 9:55:31 AM
This post is written about women manipulating men. But in my opinion I think people who manipulate do it to both sexes, and women are less tolerate of another woman manipulating them. I say this for good reason. Men who are prone to being manipulated by women don't get what's happening. When a man's needs are seemingly being met, the obvious can be missed. If they step back and see how a particular woman relates to other women they will have their answer.
"Power is what we settle for when we give up on finding love". An interesting statement by Jean Shinoda Bolen. But in the context of trying to better understand manipulative people and their motivations, I would change Bolen's statement to say "Manipulative relationships are what we settle for when we give up on being in authentic relationships".
An authentic relationship is one in which both parties show both emotional honesty and mutual respect, meaning that boundaries and differences are respected by both people. We learn how to be in these kinds of relationships as children, when we experience these things in our relationships with our parents. If our parents do not give us their authentic emotional involvement in our lives, if they make us feel uncomfortable about our own feelings, so that we do not trust our feelings, we can grow up feeling that the most we can get out of life is to manipulate others. We have given up on having one of life's most fulfilling experiences, that of being in authentic relationships, whether they be romantic relationships or friendships.
Those who find themselves in a repetitive pattern of being manipulated in relationships have often had similar kinds of childhood experiences, and have similarly not learned to trust their feelings. The manipulator and the victim of manipulation are the two sides of this coin, the two outcomes of a parenting style that leads to difficulties in adulthood in participating in authentic relationships.
-- Modified on 8/15/2004 9:25:37 PM
Oh hell yes!; And she wielded her power with surgical accuracy. Interestingly she had some formal education in psychology that unfortunately served to further focus and increase her instinctive skills.
Be afraid; Be VERY afraid.
To answer the first question I think most of us have met manipulative women both in the hobby and in civilian life. In fact one provider told me that providers are much better at manipulating men than their civilian counterparts.
I have to agree with Scampr in that some of the best advice you can give a young man is to take a look at the marriage of the parents of his future wife to get an idea about how their marriage is likely to go. For the same reason the future wife should take a look at his parent's relationship. There seems to be ample evidence in psychology to support that statement. It is statistically well documented that spousal and child abuse are often passed down from one generation to the next as a learned behavior.
I think Michelle's sentiments about not wanting to report to anyone is a feeling that more and more people of both sexes are acting upon.
Although many powerful women may be manipulators I have been fortunate to have known several that are very direct straight shooters that try to get things done with a minimum of BS.
Sedona's comment about manipulation "I make him king;he makes me queen" reminds me of a book I read long ago about "Games People Play". It sounds like she has learned to substitute "good" games for sick games.
Another saying that applies to people in general as well as manipulative people has always struck me as being useful if not simplistic is "You can tell a lot about a person's character by watching how they treat people that can't hurt them, people that can't help them and dumb animals".
Well..it IS interesting to see manipulative people and wonder why? or how? And to count it as an 'ability' would imply that this is a good thing? I certainly don't regard it as a virtue..
My comment about my manipulation was to show that I just don't have any 'skill' in that nor do I want to. I just want to show 'him' all my best, and 'he' in turn reciprocates, and it just works. As Dionisios said, too, that he learned that when he makes it all about her, and she makes it all about him, it just works.
As far as family goes, my mother was most definitely not a manipulator, yet I remember one sister (out of 5) certainly WAS!
An interesting study, for sure...
I'm glad the person asked me to post this as I think the comments have been very insightful.
they've learned exactly how to set up an environment where you think you're having a good time while you lose all your money, then look at the regulars who'll tap out until they can scrape money together and come back for more. Guess what, manipulative relationships are exactly like that.
And why? I think without the male qualities treated so disdainfully here, consensual mating cannot even take place. Male vulnerabilities have been evolved in, and shaped, or perhaps mis-shaped by their environment, their culture. An absence of "tragic flaw at the core of his masculinity" wouldn't necessarily mean psychological health. In fact, the man without any psycological needs is frightening. For his own self-interest, these are flaws, until you realize that he comes from a long line of men evolved to sacrifice their self interests to maximize the success of their offspring and relatives.
If women know how to exploit these, and some women are better at it than others, it's because that's evolved in and shaped by learning, too, and it's not always used selfishly. I don't believe a "film noir" plot is ever very likely in the real world, but they have happened.
Power and sex are very much intertwined in human psychology. If men aren't known so much for manipulating women, it's because men hold all the trump cards.
At least women tend to be less heavy-handed about power. Power plays between men frequently end with body-counts.
/Zin
"...it's because men hold all the trump cards"
Not quite. TER is living proof of that.
They hold the trump cards, but all the trumps are so destructive, it's frequently pathological if they play them.
/Zin
Some of the best exist within the hobby and are masters of separating men from their money.
Many men fall into this category. Some of us used to be this man, but have now gained the insight and self-respect to make such attempted manipulations impotent.
We such men are the ones who give up the hobby or are on the verge of giving it up. The manipulations become too transparent, the illusions too obvious, the encounters too boring.
Time to move on.