Or do you feel that is part of the risks we take doing this?

.. I've had 2 ladies turn me down because my TER ID was on there blacklist.  It got there because I posted rather MEAN review of a provider. I had to change my handle, so I could continue hobbying...

This article will unfortunately draw even more attention to the web sites, thus meaning more attention to the names and people that are curretnly posted on the web site as well as to the boards, as the person who sued, had very delicate info given out in that article, that is a specific identifier as to who he is.

Its good news for men, and bad news for some women, who are justified in their reports, when they have been robbed, purposely shorted, raped, blackmailed, and so forth but not for bad reviews, or NCNS. Thats just stupid baby shit. I do have a provider friend that was ripped off, harrassed, and forced to do things she was not comfortable with, who later found the man on one of those sites, and his listings were multiple and went back years,  had she seen him there before she wouldnt have met him. Unfortunately though she still might not have known as he was one who changed his hobby names before, but not because he was the victim, but to hide his own crimes.

Its a double edged sword, and unfortunately, I don't think with all the board bust lately, latest one a national board out of Cleveland, the NYC M&G fiasco, the NY madame, the DC nightmare,  that having this exposure is going to be healthy for the hobby.



Quote:

Hey SCOed,

Well, that's good news... at least for me.

My REAL name is on that blacklist mentioned in the article.

The problem was... I NEVER met this provider in person nor did I make any arrangements to meet this provider who outed me. How about them apples?

Serpius

Quote:

END OF MESSAGE

Those sites need to be blown off the face of the Earth. The abuse has been rampant for years. The nasty hookers who have been abusing the lists ruin it for the legit providers.

There must be hundreds of hobbyists who were outed on the NBL without just cause. Just how many newbies were outed for saying the wrong thing in an email or on the phone, and end up leaving the hobby before they even get started? Talk about cutting off you nose to spite your face.

There are also dozens and dozens of TER handles placed there over threads that have been posted right here.

The other problem is that there are not just a few hookers doing this, but many. That's the shame of it. They ruin the process for legit providers, and some wonder why we are so reluctant to give up screening info. Can you blame us?

And don't think that it is not known who some of the blacklist abusers are.

       Did you even read the link you posted? If you did, surely you recognized that the equally clueless writer of the article did not understand what was happening. Let me help both of you with that – with respect to the lawsuit against National Blacklist, the parties settled –drop your lawsuit and we will remove your name from our web site – and the judge simply made the settlement agreement a court order.

       This guy was going to lose his lawsuit against the website anyway. National Blacklist is absolutely protected from civil liability by the Communications Decency Act for third party content. But why spend money litigating when you can settle?

     So your caption "Blacklists successfully sued" is bit misleading. It is still up the last time I looked and hasn't paid a dime.

      And for all the posters who want the National Blacklist shut down, did it ever occur to you that TER is just as much a blacklist for ladies as this website is for men? Oh, I see, you forgot about the Fakefinder posts, the ROB posts, and the "okay if you are drunk" reviews (isn't it long past time for TER to retire that misogynistic category?).

       If a lady posts false stuff about a client on the blacklist, isn’t the problem the dishonest lady rather than the website? That is how we view the dishonest guys. So why do you hope that the entire blacklist site be shut down? What about the guys on that site that deserve to be blacklisted?

      So from my hair the National Blacklist does good work and the guys have to bear the burden of false reports just as the ladies do on TER. And don’t confuse the National Blacklist with the Badboy blacklist which apparently has been used to blackmail innocent guys. If the web operators get involved in blackmail, then of course they should go down.

...you can only see clients who are screened properly and have good references..

Ladies just need to see great guys like me!!.......

None of the sites was sued. Ladies need a way to warn others as men have review sites. Review sites if done right do not out providers real info. Sites like the ones sued do out guys for the smallest of offences. I think provider only sits are key to keeping everyone safe. Besides how trustworthy is a blacklist site that don't even check to make sure the person blacklisting is even a provider?

These sites are why many guy will not provide information screening or will lie and give fake information. This endangers providers. As anyone for any reason can post fake complaints, the info in this site are of marginal use to start with. This public blacklist are a threat to all in my opinion.  

Providers have to find another way as the current system of blacklisting is being abused by some.

Hey Mutton,

What national board that is out of Cleveland?

Sorry to come across is "out of the loop", but I have no idea what board that would be.

Serpius

Quote:

And note provider only blacklists do everything a blacklist should do and don't ruin lives over a NCNS.

What good is that info if the girl still has no recourse of action.

The girl I mentioned in my other thread, who saw a client who forced her pass her limits, ripped her off, to name a few, knew who he was, knew where he worked, and had checked his whitelist info here. She didn't blacklist him but was threatened that if she did he would ruin her rep, she didn't blacklist him but he still did ruin her rep. Guess he decided not to chance it, and to put that seed of doubt out there about her so that she couldnt do anything.

If she had seen his info on there she never would have seen him.

I do think that those list should be private though, but do not understand the thought process of what is good for the gander is not good for the goose. Meaning many womens lives have been ruined by being raped, beaten, murdered, robbed,  reviews and bc bs, but some men think that broads dont deserve the same consideration in being able to let others know if there is someone not to be trusted.

-- Modified on 6/14/2012 8:59:54 PM

Where if they don't deliver or such all their personal info  is put out on the web.  That is the problem with these john BL when too many times the gals (and they are right here) post johns personal info because they didn't like a score, or tip, or whatever.  You can thank those "broads" for ruining what I agree with you on, a potentially important piece of information to protect the gals from dangerous johns.

The only way johns can protect themselves at this point is via alias', back channel and emails.  And it only reaches a very small audience overall.

While many fellas here may make comments and such, the truth is we are all in this together.  And if johns are dangerous, many (if not most) of the johns want to know who those assholes are as well.  I for one would feel horrible if some "crazy" john asked me for a referral and I wasn't aware that he is a danger to this community.

Many gals have bc that info to the johns as well to try and get those assholes out of circulation.

Just sayin

On most of what you stated, but unfortunately, from what I have been told, girls can't name those kind of sites on these kinds of sites, so not many girls know about them so they are kind of shit out of luck.

No, his name wasn't mentioned in the story, but pertinant details of who he is was. LOL. I figured out who he was within minutes of going from the story to going to one of the two sites, the one that did not show up for court. Its a no brainer.

I agree about that NCNS bs, and all the other little bs that gets listed. And they should have to be verified to be allowed to put anything up there.

...for those of us who really do have valid safety concerns. I've known plenty of angry providers who for example might get a badly written review ( and it's deserved) and then make up terrible things about a guy. You can find any personal info on the internet and post it there on these Blacklist sites. There's only ONE site I can think of where the owner very, very carefully gets both sides of the story and has openly admitted that providers have submitted fake bad information about a client just because they were angry about being stood up or not getting a perfect review.

Hey Julia,

I know at least ONE provider that will disagree with you.

Serpius


Quote:

-- Modified on 6/14/2012 6:28:43 PM

but then the "bad apples" find ways around the system.

As serpius has said (a few times on this thread), there's at least ONE gal not thrilled with this.

I think that number is understated...by A LOT !!

And only the gals that have abused this am I alluding to...and they, and many of the johns, know who they are...and avoid them like the plague!

Look at it. The number one reason anyone is blacklisted is NCNS. That is at least 75%. The next biggest reasons are email related "time wasters" or rude but non threatening emails. Cops are anther big one but cops change there numbers often and names as far as that goes.

Now on the NBL in my area 5 guys are listed that did things that could be called dangerous outside of the useless cop posts. Not one bit of personal information was listed in the public part. The site is all about destroying people over small stuff. Because where is the info on the rapists?

CPA,

That "ONE lady" has not chimed in yet. Hmm... I wonder why?

At least we know it's not the provider who has already chimed in this thread. Good on her!!

I may not agree with her on some topics, but at least if and if I do get to see her, I'll feel safe around her.

Serpius


Quote:

And cases like this will open up the door to potential litigation.  As word spreads there will be enough johns who will join in on that.  

And hopefully they will pierce the veil to include those "bat shit crazy" gals who have been doing this and threatening for years.  Couldn't happen to a "nicer" bunch of hookers.

The down side is that, as mutton has asked, what about the 'real" threats out there.  And I agree with her on that.  Just as we have had to use the bc methods to protect ourselves from those "bat shit crazy" gals...they will also have to find a better method to protect the majority of the ladies who are here not looking for trouble.

You and I both know too many sweethearts here that we would never ever want to see compromised by lack of info on maniac johns with intent to harm.

Also take into consideration the female operating the black list boards. There are several providers who are mocked and shunned away from safety on so called safe boards. That in itself is abusive
to mistreat good well reviewed providers where unwarranted.A good business person man or woman won't hold grudges and berate and belittle others . Such a shame. I hope the innocent providers speak up and stop fearing being flamed for doing so.

THS  

There are legitimate sites, and providers should use them when necessary. I favor having private blacklists for the legit providers, and no I would not want to see our TER ladies put at risk.

We can all bombard the NBL attorney with letters and emails and make him work for his blood money.

I had my REAL name posted on a democratic blog a few years ago...won't elaborate, but my point is if someone wants to out your info. they don't need a blacklist site. They can write a blog and host it overseas, they can use CL, BP, whatever. Shutting BL sites down won't stop the problem if you fk the wrong person in this business, nor will it stop the BSC providers. If they are that hell bent on outing you, they will.

What about sites like www.eccieleaks.com? I heard they are being sued and this is run by your own fellow hobbyists just because they got pissed off at a review board. They decided to post all the private info. including pics, names, addresses, even a google map to some mod's houses. This includes the powder room where the guy's personal info. was supposed to be so air tight..yea right, that's why they call it a "leaks" site.

Just proves my point...you can't stop them all. A private blacklist for providers would spill over one way or the other. Someone would feel so abused they would still do on purpose to make sure certain guys info. was posted in public, because quite frankly that's where it hurts.



We all take a risk for being here, but if none of us were here we would not have to worry about such things.



-- Modified on 6/15/2012 1:19:16 AM

is in legal action that would force the sites to produce the providers info and "out them" as the accuser.  That would immediately cease all frivolous posts.

Can that happen?  Time will tell...but I've seen class action suits on less frivolity than this.

posting the reports for all they know. Not all of these sites check to see if you're a provider, pimp, or if you are even freaking 18! You have wives on there outing their own husbands after being caught. If a guy on that blacklist site was outed and that provider he made threats to has the emails...he is fked either way. I can't see that many married men taking that chance if they damn well know they are in the wrong. If someone made threats to me, I certainly would make sure to hold on to the evidence just in case.

This post is not about you, it's about hobbyists being outed unnecessarily and black lists that are run by old man hating hookers who relish in destroying hobbyists.

You are shunned for valid reasons. Speak only for yourself.  

A woman with a mind who understands the scales of life. F.u.c.k.i.n.g. r.e.f.r.e.s.h.i.n.g.

Hello,

If someone from either the Republican or the Democrat party posted my REAL name, I couldn't care less because being associated with either is NOT illegal and no one loses their employment, family or friends over this.

However, being outed on a blacklist is the opposite. Not only you can lose your job and many other things, but you are forever associated with an illegal activity. In many cases, that can be more devastating than sitting in jail for years.

If you like to do that, go ahead, but don't expect sympathy from us hobbyists and some providers if you continue to defend blacklists.

Serpius


Quote:

I wish EL would go away as well. Yes the ones that really wish to ruin a guys life would still do so. There is no stopping that but these public blacklist is like placing a loaded gun on a table. It makes thing free easy and anonymous to ruin some one to ruin a guys life. These sites are dangerous. EL among them.

Quote:

They could start up another board, have other shills post the information, and as LR pointed out, put their servers in another country where the US courts have no reach.

The same maligned guy could spend a fortune and pursue this till he is ready to die, and still not be able to fend off the threat.

If there is any other side to this, it is that as the number of these proliferate, their ability to do any harm will greatly diminish due to the effect of being so commonplace and inconsequential.

Thanks for the interesting post Scoed.  It's nice to see a long interesting thread for a change that is not a train wreck.

Hello,

How do you know so much about this?

It looks like you have a lot of experience doing this.

Serpius


Quote:

who out, make threats, and endanger providers. I have been here 4 years, and felt the need to use such sites on a few occasions. Not at any time did I "have to" put my own email or name when blacklisting someone, but I usually do to let him know I was the wrong one to fk with!

It's really simple...don't fk with people in this business unless you want it to bite you in the ass. We are not talking about reviews or board bs either, but an actual threat. Guys like that, deserve what they get and they will continue to be outed on whatever site is available. Don't stalk people and you won't have to worry about it.

-- Modified on 6/15/2012 1:51:05 PM

like scoed, are not included. FYI, my name and hooker name were both posted is association with a certain political party, so yes it is the same thing. I don't need your sympathy...I have an attorney, and I was not involved with this man in any way, shape, or form. I was actually offered money to LIE about him and say my child was his and that I saw him as a hooker...I didn't accept. How's that for integrity? Try it sometime.

I could be living in Europe right now with the tag they offered for me to lie about this guy two weeks before the election, and then come back after and say it was all bs. You don't know the entire story, but do some digging...some of it is still out there which is of no harm to he or I now.
And, you're wrong again..MANY people will defend blacklist sites to protect us from scumbags who continue to stalk and harrass the very providers that have told him more than once to FK OFF!


Do you see that bright thing above you...that's the freaking light bulb that should have went off in your head long ago! Don't stalk providers, and you won't have to worry about such things serpius...novel idea eh? The ones who scream the loudest are usually the ones who are A. Too stupid to protect their info. B. Are truly innocent, and C. Know damn well their info. belongs just where it is, and that more than one provider has had an issue with them lol. Shall we keep talking?



-- Modified on 6/15/2012 2:31:03 PM

END OF MESSAGE

trying to all convince the courts they have never had dealings of any kind with a hooker...yea, I can see that happening lol. The true innocent guys deserve their names removed and have every right to sue, but how many are going to appear in open court with their wife and kids to dispute it if they know several providers could prove they have been together? Either way, I don't see many lawsuits in the near future. The first thing the judge and jury are going to ask is, "Why were you participating in illegal activity to begin with? Had you not been messing around in that world, these women would have never known who you were."

You run the risk of some provider who holds on to all of the info. any guy has ever sent her, which can be used against you. When people start asking questions, things are going to come out that are more humiliating than your info being on some board that has no credibility. It only took one letter from my attorney to have my issue taken care of, BUT that is because they damn well knew I had the balls to go and testify in open court. How many married and professional men would do the same thing? Not many.

Hello,

Doesn't TER provide a forum called Providers Only forum?

Yes, TER does and that is exactly where providers can discuss hobbyists.

Same goes for us hobbyists where we posts things about providers in the Reviewers Only forum.

Serpius


Quote:

The hobbyist was able to get his name removed from that slanderous list, so yes it was successful. Hopefully there will be a lot more lawsuits to follow.

Your analogy of TER being some sort of an equivalent to the NBL shows that you are out of touch with reality. Some of have known that for quite a while.    

The public blacklist sites are nothing like TER. Now, if we were allowed to post a provider's real name, phone number, address, etc. after every last minute cancellation, NCNS, or poor session then you would have a valid point.

I don't think most guys have a problem with ALL blacklist sites. Just the ones that display client information publicly.

Communications Decency Act covers statements against businesses and people on third party sites. This has not been tested when the business proving content it in violation of other laws. In fact it has been upheld that if it is in violation of other laws no such immunity exists see the case against roommates.com which violated housing laws. Screening services for escorts is illegal in most states and as this site does so over the internet puts it in violation of federal law. That is grounds to have their immunity removed. In fact as a US based company it is in violation of a great many laws aiding prostitution and all. There is a reason TER and most smart escort sites are not using big daddy or gave corporate offices in Vegas. See escorts.com as proof of how vulnerable US companies are that play in this game.

Now as to comparing it to TER. TER DOES NOT OUT PROVIDERS REAL INFORMATION, EVER. Anyone doing so will be banned. There is one huge difference. Unless outed some other way a TER review does not follow the lady after she leaves this game. A TER review does not tell family and friends she is a sexual service provider. TER lets providers delist unless she is a ripoff. There is no completely announcer reviews on TER. TER will ban guys caught posting fake reviews, TER will reject any review that outs anyone, and TER gives you a handle/alias that you can research to see how credible the review is. Every thing on TER is tractable in some way to posters/reviewers account.

NBL outs real information. NBL shows up on search engines with real info and outs guys to wife, kids, family, friends and employers. They brag how they destroy lives. NBL give you no way off even if the person that sent in the information admits to lying. NBL does not have any accountability. Posts can and often are completely anonymous. They need not even have a membership. I can blacklist people there and I am in no way an escort. There is no researching the source of the information. People are not banned for putting fake listings on the NBL. There is very little in common between the two sites.

Now as for the guys that earn a blacklisting there are plenty of provider only blacklist that do not out people. Sites that do not show up on Google. I wish I can name some but TER will not let me but their are plenty of them. Even Utah has is own review/discussion boards/blacklist that you have to be a member to see is fine even though both hobbyists and providers can see said list. Tends to keep real info over stupid stuff down.

Now as to why I think the sit should be shut down. Because it outs real information on Google. Because there is no accountability. You need not even be a provider or even female to blacklist on that site. Most of the outings are of NCNS or Emailing and not booking not outing worthy stuff. If a guy breaks down in a dead zone he should not be at risk for loosing his kids. May I state once more the big reason, its information shows up on any search engine out there. They brag how they destroy lives. They have been shown to out innocent people in the past they even admitted to such once in the past. (They later removed that text site.) That is why it should be destroyed.

P.S. NBL and other such sites is the number one reason guys list as to why they are hesitant to give real info. This hurts ladies attempts to screen and stay safe. As the good guys are hiding like the bad ones.

Hello,

Wow, that statement below is really professional. (coughing... NOT!... coughing)

"but I usually do to let him know I was the wrong one to fk with"

That kind of attitude will only make you look bad, not anyone else.

So, when you blacklist a guy, you're saying that you are not required to put in your own email or your name. That makes sense to you, but no one else.

There's NO LOGIC in doing such thing because how can anyone have any confidence in the outing in the blacklist websites if fake names are being used.

Therefore, when you use a fake name, you have made a mockery of the blacklist website. Useless BS is what you are telling the world with YOUR statement.

Go ahead and cry about "protecting" the providers' name... a LAME excuse! Once you OUT someone using their REAL name, you just made yourself a target for legal action, both civil and criminal.

Way to go.

Are you implying that I am stalking people?

Serpius


Quote:

END OF MESSAGE

Hello,

I for one will defend my name and my family from scam artists and people who attempt to drag my name into the mud in order to extort something from me.

Yes, I do have evidence to show such type of actions.

You can bet that I will take ANYONE to court to bring civil and criminal action against that person regardless if they are providers or not. Once I tell that person to stop whatever they are doing, if they refuse, then legal action will be initiated.

Serpius


Quote:

END OF MESSAGE

And I will never do anything worthy of blacklisting. But given how there is guys on their outed for board posts, I still fear them.

-- Modified on 6/15/2012 2:03:24 PM

Until that post is caught and reported, it was still up there. I know TER is better at handling those types of things than other boards, but I could name a few where your info. would sit for 12 hours until a mod woke up to take it down.

It's gone sure, but how many people copied it before it was taken down? I am betting many have already downloaded or crawled Eccie Leaks and NBL too, to copy this information. I am not against blacklist sites, but I am against them not being regulated. A provider should have to A. Prove she is not only a provider but one that has a good reputation, B. She should have to produce actual PROOF of the allegations she is posting, and C. If a hobbyist can dispute these allegations with his own proof that is deemed worthy, the posts should be removed.

The reason I am for public blacklists ONLY for serious offenders, is because they deserve it! They might think twice making threats to call the cops, stalking,  robbing or assaulting someone if they know their job and family can see the shit. What good is a private one if they think to themselves, "So what lol, only hookers see this, so it won't hurt me." That is the very reason so many are against them...they know damn well they won't be able to get away with their dirt.

If you were only allowed to post handles and not real names, the same guys could do the same crime over and over just by a handle change. Many women require real name and employment to start, so if your name is on there, she knows not to see you. There has to be a way to protect both the privacy of those who are innocent of serious offenses, and let the public know about those who are a danger...public sites do this, but not one has gotten it right yet.

-- Modified on 6/15/2012 4:22:43 PM

When I say, people should not fk with me...I mean for SERIOUS issues like you have been associated with! Anyone that stupid to STALK and make threats to out a provider, deserves what he gets...clear enough? I did not say I "agreed" with the sites allowing us to post under any name and email...I simply said that is the way it is! I know regular civie girls who have outed their own BFs, so duh...you are not required to use your provider name or email! That was the part I agreed with that was messed up!

Try paying attention! The only reason you won't let this thing rest is because YOU ARE ON IT THREE TIMES, and twice was long before you ever harrassed ME via email. Now, for the last time...LEAVE ME THE FK ALONE!

You are unstable and your posts here where you can't even remember wtf you said are even more proof. In one post you say, "I insist all providers meet me before hand," then in the very next post say it was them lol. Again, you said you "will never pay before a date," then in another post try to pass it off as it was the providers' doing. You are so FULL OF SHIT it is unreal, and more than one person has busted you on your nonsense...not just me babe.

Now, I am going to take TER's advice and just act as if you don't exist...because quite frankly, you don't. You are nutty as hell, and I can post links to PROVE IT~

-- Modified on 6/15/2012 6:18:05 PM

Every public blacklist I have seen allow for anonymous listings. There is zero accountability on these sites.

Now if the lady had to prove she was indeed a provider in good standing and if she was found out she was listing fake listings she was banned for life. If the reasons for blacklisting was limited to dangerous or severe behavior like stalking, robbing, complete theft of service, threats, violence, outing, rape, blackmail and the like. Then maybe a public blacklist would be OK. But none of the current public web sites act like this. They brag how they ruin lives for small offences like NCNS. They are not regulated in any real way. Hell there is a provider blacklisted on the NBL in Utah after all. How is that for being regulated.

END OF MESSAGE

SCOed,

Very well put and good info!

Now, if a few providers who are blacklist happy take the time to read this post all the way through, maybe, just maybe they will rethink their hard-headed position about favoring blacklist websites.

My gut feeling is that those providers will still continue to use those blacklist websites as a
form of coercion against honest hobbyists.

Serpius


Quote:

......Assholes and nutjobs deserve to be outed, but stand up folks do not....  

....Just by this thread alone I can see a few guys here need to be there and are pissed because they are. I have never done anything to warrant a blacklist, and never will. I also don't give out my real info.


....If you stalk someone regardless of where, your ass need to be up there. No one said we have to pay for sex. This is a providers' business, it's our pleasure. Any court in the world is gonna laugh their asses off at most of this crap.

Hello,

You don't know the whole story, so your post doesn't make sense.

Serpius

Quote:

BendOver,

Just because you've never been on a blacklist doesn't mean that you never will be put on one.

I've seen a few guys being put on blacklists for NO apparent reason at all. Yet, folks like you THINK that those guys did do something wrong when in fact, they did not do anything.

A provider or someone who is pissed off about something will be vindictive and put innocent guys on the blacklist. You say that it NEVER happens? Please... get your head out of the sand.

Don't be surprised that one day you'll see your name in the blacklist.

Serpius


Quote:

Anyone can miss a date and everyone has stood up someone sometime or anther in there lives. The number one reason by far people are outed is NCNS. Something every person that made it to adulthood has done. Yes it is rude and assholeish but it does not justifying outing. Zero person in my area have their names outed on public blacklists in Utah. ZERO. There are six reports but no info is public) I gave up counting NCNS somewhere over a hundred on NBL alone.

Sadly I do agree with London if these bad sites was banished new ones would likely take there place. I still would like to see it happen though. Who knows maybe I will be blacklisted for this thread. It would not be the first time someone ended up on said list over a review or board post.

See you are an example of the harm these sites do to the women. You will not give real info out of fear of being outed. You are a smart man. I am not as smart as I do give real info as I feel it protects the ladies. You are not alone in the fact you will not give out said info because of this crap. Good guys often won't, but it makes it so the bad guys get in and ad guys do bad things do bad things to women.

My wife was raped by a guy that only gave a few references. She felt she couldn't report it because she had nothing to give the cops and fear they would go after her instead. I feel strongly ladies need real info. These sites make it harder for them to get said info and stay booked. Both of my former ATF got busted because they gave up screening because guys would not be screened and they could not make enough to pay the bills and screen. I hate anything that makes getting real info harder for the gals.

SCOed,

The provider who had outed me in the blacklist put my REAL name on the blacklist site. I NEVER gave her my REAL name. Somehow she got my real name and posted on that BL site. I have NEVER threatened or stalked any woman in my life. I am not that kind of person that this provider makes me out to be. She's nothing but lies and has some sort of vendetta against me. I don't know why or what her reasons are.

The crazy thing about it is that the REAL name she put on the website is the exact name of a real legit business (a consulting type of business) right there in her hometown. If that business ever get ahold of that information, that provider is up the creek for lots of legal problems.

Serpius


Quote: