I couldn't disagree more. I'm involved with "growth work," for lack of a better term, and it's often impossible to heal a behavior or habit without getting to the roots. My personal belief is that there are times when a desire to change can be enough, but usually one has to delve into how we became who we currently are. And - there's ALWAYS an explanation if you dig deep enough. Once you are armed with the truth about yourself, you then have choice - to play victim to your programming, or work actively to change the thing you aren't happy with.
I have a good marriage in many ways but the sex has fizzled out and we don't discuss it because it's sensitive territory -- each would probably blame the other, to no good purpose except to build animosity. We never did build a good dispute resolution process into our relationship and so we put a wall around problems instead of dealing with them. In some ways it works, because I have found terrific outlets in the hobby that I wouldn't have otherwise found, and my post-menopausal wife doesn't seem all that interested in sex per se, although she can be affectionate and cuddly when the mood is right.
Here's the question: I used to suggest therapy/counseling, but eventually gave it up because my wife doesn't want to reveal her personal life to anyone, even a good therapist, and doesn't want me to discuss my dissatisfaction with her with anyone else. She's very strong about this, even though there are no deep dark secrets. She's as wholesome as they come, and still has overt sex appeal. She's in her 60s, socially charming, and guys still hit on her, in respectful ways.
Yet, I feel if you can't throw light on present problems by explaining past conflicts, you get nowhere, and the therapist has nothing to work on. My wife, who has an MSW and has keen insights on human behavior but resists attempts for her to open up about herself, says "any therapist will tell you you don't deal with problems by raising the past -- that just leads to recriminations." I totally disagree.
LG and others, what do you think?
Dear SwedeDelehanty,
It's interesting to read your posting. Of course, we have no idea about your wife's viewpoint on the matter, so giving someone advice who is in a couple - when it's really "the couple" who is "the client," not the individual - is quite difficult at best, and quite unproductive at worst.
But you are asking what I think, so here goes: I think you should COMPLETELY BACK OFF and focus on your own pleasures. Yup. Because you can lead a mare [?} to water but you can't make her drink. According to her perception communicated in the posting, she's got her MSW to fall back on, intellectually speaking, she's got her ideas about what works and what doesn't, and what your sex life should be and what it shouldn't. You've done the reasonable thing, which is suggest therapy/counseling. She's not interested in it at all and doesn't want to open up. You have found some kind of solution to your dilemma in hobbying.
Quite frankly, it sounds like this marriage is working - on its own terms. They may not be IDEAL, but heck, not many marriages are. The reality is that she's post-menopausal; unless she agrees [and believe me, at that stage it's very much mind in conjunction with matter] to undergo hormonal treatment, some good old-fashioned behavioral sex therapy, and has a radical change of heart as far as HER NEEDS are concerned, you ain't gonna get too far in your attempts to change matters.
This often happens when two people with dissimilar sex drives, sexual experiences and sexual expectations marry. Most of the time it works when they are young, because there are so many other things to focus on: building a home, having kids, creating wealth, etc. But fast forward a couple of decades, and the empty nest becomes as empty on the inside as it is on the outside.
You seem to be right in your assumption that it takes WORK to keep a long-time marriage going, and you certainly seem willing to work on it, at least according to this post. One thing you can do is ask your wife what SHE thinks you should do with your disparate sex drives. Let HER offer you a solution to YOUR problem. Rather than focusing on YOUR dissatisfaction with HER, why not focus on your dissatisfaction with the fact that you don't get enough sex, or the quality of sex (with her) for YOU to be happy? You can discuss the issue calmly and rationally, since this is not a do or die issue - after all, you've got the hobby tucked into your back pocket.
It also sounds like there is some baggage and that she doesn't want to get into it. Fine. Don't push her about that either. Tell her that you understand her position and respect it, but that she must respect yours. And yours is a position of need and scarcity. Let her come up with a plan FOR YOU, since she apparently is well taken care of. And then see where it goes.
Everyone take responsibility for their OWN sexlife, that's always a good one,
the Love Goddess
-- Modified on 4/21/2008 8:06:13 PM
LG, once again you just nailed it down with no loose ends. I found myself wanting to respond to a few of the OP's original points, but found it would just be a distraction. Though, I am sad for a the men and women who have found themselves in a similar situation, and when their hobbying activities or extra-marital affairs are discovered, had their lives devastated through divorce. In this case, I doubt if the wife is going to give him Carte Blanc to hobby.
Thanks, LG, and others who posted thoughtful insights. I think my personal situation is very common, and that's why I'm making an additional comment -- that there are a lot of folks out there just like my wife and me. Our core issue is not the banking of sexual fires, although that's a factor; we spent a lot of time arguing about child-rearing and finances (what couple doesn't?), and also blaming the other without arriving at a resolution. Eventually, I think we realized the good things outweigh the bad and we both decided, individually, not to seek a divorce, which we had been considering. But there has never been a real meeting of the minds or resolution of the core issues -- we just sidestep them, and realize that we see some important things very differently. Incidentally, our kids turned out fine after years of struggle, nearly upsetting the applecart and receiving much good counselling, testing, etc. to find out what the problems were. We both made clear that our love for them was a constant in their lives, although we manifested it in different ways, and that was a big factor.
But I finally got disgusted about playing the blame game, noticed that I still had strong sexual interests although no longer with my wife, and went out and had some transcendental experiences with providers -- pure joy. At this point, I won't give it up. If my wife decided to have a fling, I wouldn't like it, but how could I deny her? If she found out about my hobbying, we'd all be worse off. I did tell her some time ago, thanks to LG, that she is responsible for her own happiness and I for mine, and not to blame me if she's dissatisfied and unwilling to discuss "issues."
Also, we looked around at our seemingly happy and prosperous friends and decided we are just as well off as they are, and in many cases actually happier -- and that a truly blissful marriage without problems doesn't exist if people are serious. Let's face it, friends -- humans are ornery, and conflicts are natural. How you resolve them is the key, and I still feel resentment that we wasted so much time arguing without a resolution and downgraded an exceptional relationship to one that is still very good most days, but on bad days it's still a bummer.
I'm wondering if these additional details resonate with others of you who have long-lived and still viable marriages, but not without conflict?
I couldn't disagree more. I'm involved with "growth work," for lack of a better term, and it's often impossible to heal a behavior or habit without getting to the roots. My personal belief is that there are times when a desire to change can be enough, but usually one has to delve into how we became who we currently are. And - there's ALWAYS an explanation if you dig deep enough. Once you are armed with the truth about yourself, you then have choice - to play victim to your programming, or work actively to change the thing you aren't happy with.
This is a rampant problem all over America, I lived with it for 20 years....Then I read one of Dr. Laura's books, The Proper Care and Feeding of a Marriage was the first book i read. What an eye opener,it gave me a clear understanding on what was wrong..I then spent 5 months trying to get my wife to read it,alone or with me. When that failed i knew it was hopeless, so i got divorced. Wow im glad i did,now my new lady and I have read all of Dr. Laura's books and we have the most amazing relationship...Trust me on one thing if your wife wants to stay in the relationship she can change, in so doing you will change, so dont beat yourself up after all she has all of the control. Its wierd though after 10 years playing in this hobby, now i no longer need the company of other women, being home is wonderful.... Good luck