OK - I'm a newbie to the hobby and all this feels very familiar to me already so I thought I would interject some related questions. I have a companion I see that I am infatuated with, in part most likely because I haven't had any type of close relationship for 10+ years. I do have questions for this group in this excellent thread.
I have told her that I think of her every day and would like to talk abut this, knowing this is a business transaction, to find the "walls of the box" so I don't stray past those. Is this too much to ask? The question I have is would most providers give me a straight answer, given their role in this transaction.
My time with her is important to me but it seems equally important to define the relationship - would make things cleaner (... I know, when it comes to emotions nothing is clean... )
Of course, as others have said, seeing other providers can ameliorate this, regardless.
...Love TER... Very helpful to me and a great group!!!!
Hello,
I, like so many before me, have found that I am completely infatuated with my ATF. I think about her all of the time. Even the sappy songs sound good. My question is if I should tell her or just keep it my little secret. This is probably more of a mental health question then a sexual one.
From reading this forum I gather it is highly unlikely that she will have the same feelings for me and telling her might risk my appointments no longer being accepted. I really do not want that to happen and I figure that if she is all loving and caring while I am there, why mess with it. I can adore her on her terms.
So, back to my question, should I tell her or just keep things the way they are? Am I hurting myself by pursuing a fake relationship?
Normally when you like someone and they do not like you in return, that is that. In these cases, I can be wildly attracted to her and she can have void of attraction for me and yet we are still having an intimate moment. I get what I want, she gets what she wants. Everyone is happy right?
It's not that difficult, ichi_musashi,
You merely need to identify what feels worse to you - not telling her about your feelings, or enduring a potential loss if you do?
I guess it's like asking someone to choose between pestilence or cholera, LOL. But in this case, it's truly your call.
Now, your question "Am I hurting myself by pursuing a fake relationship?" is truly interesting. Does this mean that you ARE pursuing the "fake" relationship at all? My advice on that one is not to pursue anything that's fake. But if with "pursuing" you actually mean just paying for services rendered as often as possible, well, then I guess it's fair and square and no one needs to feel used and/or taken advantage of.
Your last item, "everyone is happy, right?" seems very rhetorical. You really put yourself in that double-bind crucible when you ask this question. Clearly, you're NOT happy with things the way they are, or else you would not be putting out the issue for commentary.
The only consolation I can offer is that if you're a reg'lar guy and not obsessive or otherwise mentally unhinged, this infatuation will run its course and your ATF will assume mortal proportions in the end. As to telling her, well, I think you know the answer on that one.
It's that once-a-month statistic cropping up again, folks,
the Love Goddess
I am sure that I would rather keep it to myself then risk her not seeing me.
I guess what I meant by pursuing a "fake" relationship was that I am living out a fantasy that she is not aware of.
When I look into her eyes while we are in the throws of passion, I am thinking how I simply adore her.
In a normal relationship two people who do not share the same feeling are not this intimate.
This is what leads me to the question of am I hurting myself by continuing to see her knowing how I feel towards her.
You are correct in the assumption that I am not happy with this situation.
I really want to tell her how I feel. Honesty is the best policy, but I do not want to risk losing the time I have with her because of it.
I like to think that I am stable, but that question is relative. I hope that this is merely infatuation and that it will either fade away,
or she will show me some signs of interest. This leads to another dilemma. The problem is that I can not tell what is truly a genuine remark
from her and what is, as you would say, "scripted". We seem to hit it off and we share a lot in common.
We can talk without issue and things feel very comfortable. Actually, I have never felt so comfortable with a woman as I do with her.
I am fully aware that this is her job and that one of her main directives is to make me feel this way. She wants me to return for her services.
This just compounds my problem and adds to my question of am I hurting myself by allowing this.
In my mind it plays out like this:
Here you have a guy who wants the girl. Here you have a girl who wants the guys money so she plays on his emotions and ego.
This hooks the guy so that he returns time and time again. Though not explicit, she is sending the "I am interested in you too" signals that just add to the fantasy that I have going.
So, to an extent, my fancy fancies me. If that makes sense at all.
Knowing how I feel about her and knowing that I do not want to give her up leaves me with only the option of continuing things the way they have been.
I will treat her kind and love her while we are together. I do not really see that I have a choice in it. The heart wants what it wants. We do not get to make that decision.
In the end, I really do enjoy her and this whole thing has made me feel like a teenager again. I just hate that I can not be open about it.
Thank you for your time,
Ichi
-- Modified on 11/14/2008 4:45:20 PM
I really do not know anything about her except what she has told me and that might or might not be true in the end.
I believe in staying in the here and now and when we are together, we are together. There is nothing else in this world except our little room.
I have thought about the the relationship issue long and hard. I have no issue with who she is and what she does. The feelings that I have are for her, the woman that I met. Not the woman that I want her to be. Too often people think in the terms of what will this bring me or how can I benefit from this. I too am guilty of this in the fact that I won't tell her how I feel for fear of not being able to see her again. The emotional bond however will not fall to this. Love is held to a higher standard. It is the hope and wish that we can be bigger than everything else that stands in our path. That together we can overcome all obstacles. In each other we find strength. I do not think that she can make me happy, for only I can do that. All I can really say is that in gazing into her eyes I can lose myself. In her simple embrace I feel whole. Her smile can bring tears of joy.
I know it is easy to say one thing while you are not in that situation and I am fairly certain that I wont be. From reading this forum I have yet to find the happy ending between love struck client and
all business provider. I am not saying that it does not happen, but I have yet to find a trace of it.
Only time will tell.
Ichi
I really do not know anything about her except what she has told me and that might or might not be true in the end.
I believe in staying in the here and now and when we are together, we are together. There is nothing else in this world except our little room.
I have thought about the the relationship issue long and hard. I have no issue with who she is and what she does. The feelings that I have are for her, the woman that I met. Not the woman that I want her to be. Too often people think in the terms of what will this bring me or how can I benefit from this. I too am guilty of this in the fact that I won't tell her how I feel for fear of not being able to see her again. The emotional bond however will not fall to this. Love is held to a higher standard. It is the hope and wish that we can be bigger than everything else that stands in our path. That together we can overcome all obstacles. In each other we find strength. I do not think that she can make me happy, for only I can do that. All I can really say is that in gazing into her eyes I can lose myself. In her simple embrace I feel whole. Her smile can bring tears of joy.
I know it is easy to say one thing while you are not in that situation and I am fairly certain that I wont be. From reading this forum I have yet to find the happy ending between love struck client and all business provider. I am not saying that it does not happen, but I have yet to find a trace of it.
Only time will tell.
Ichi
Unlike most, i went ahead and took the plunge and talked about my emotional experience with my ATF. I did ease into it gradually, as did she. We began by talking about the things that we really liked/loved about each other. "I love the way I feel when you...", "I love that you're so...". That sort of thing. Eventually, we got to the point where we could use the dreaded L word without the possessive baggage that usually comes along with it, although that stuff still crops up for me sometimes.
What I ended up with by taking that risk is one of the better friends I've ever had. A person who knows me better than my SO in many ways and who can be totally honest with me as I am with her. It's a very difficult relationship to sustain, not because we argue, etc. but because we aren't in positions to pursue it beyond the level of friendship and that causes a great deal of emotional turmoil for each of us sometimes.
That turmoil has been very productive so far, though and we've each been able to identify and work through some very important personal issues with the advice and support of the other.
So, it may be that the worst thing that could happen is that she could say, "Hmmm. Let's see where this goes." Are you prepared for that? I considered that for a long time before I began talking about what I was feeling and the result has been both better and worse than anything I imagined.
Good luck. Try to stay conscious of your decisions.
Thank you wormwood. This is very informative. I have been looking at it as an all or nothing situation. I had not really thought about testing the waters so to say. Perhaps on my next visit I will let it slip that she has been on my mind a lot and see where things go from there. I do not know why I had not thought of that before. If she seems tense about it, I can change the subject to something more pleasant, if you get my drift. 
I too have thought about the relationship aspect to great length and it will not be a problem for me. Though I will admit that it is easy to say while it is not an option. We will just have to wait and see how things go.
Thanks again,
Ichi
and I was unprepared for some of the stuff that's been dredged up for me. Not jealousy, but fears of inadequacy, death, etc. that I thought I had dealt with a long time ago. What I've found is that our relationship has unearthed a whole new level of stuff, both good and not so good, although all of it has been very productive from the perspective of personal growth.
I'm not one to counsel caution very much since rarely does one gain anything of significant value without also encountering significant risk. Just keep a close eye on yourself and also keep the emotional welfare of your ATF in mind. It's easy to forget that some of this stuff can be very hard for her, too.
Should you tell her that you are infatuated? I wouldn't unless you are totally sure that she won't freak and stop seeing you.
Paying her for sex is not "pursuing a fake relationship". It is simply paying her for sex. In it's own way that is a very real relationship, just not a romantic one. You are only wasting your time if you think that paying her will lead to something else. It won't.
Now honestly, I am quite friendly with my ATF. We share some wonderful off the clock time but the sex is always paid for. We go to dinner, we have even talked about going on a trip together...but the sex is always paid for. We talk about our lives, offer moral support to each other and spend a lot of time laughing at the world and it's foolishness....but the sex is always paid for. Are you seeing a trend here?
Be honest with yourself about what can and can not happen between you and this woman. Only you can determine if you are wasting your time or not.
-- Modified on 4/15/2008 8:31:37 AM
I think I understand where you are coming from bostonguy57. This was all started as a business transaction and I am sure it will remain that way.
I am not asking for any of that to change in case that is what you are implying.
The fake relationship that I am referring to deals more with the GFE session and my infatuation with the provider. These two coupled together builds a false relationship dynamic that only exists in the confines of our time together. I am wondering how healthy that situation is.
Sex is sex. I fully understand that. Can I have a relationship with this woman? I like to think so. Would I have a relationship with this woman? I most assuringly would. Now, the problem is does she like me outside of our little fantasy world. I wish I knew the answer to this one.
It is impossible for me to tell based off of normal interpretation of body language and those tell-tell signs that someone likes you. Mirroring , grooming, laughing and the like. All of these are present in our time together. Are they "scripted", or are they real. Impossible for me to say. All I can say for sure is that I get an overwhelming sense of peace when I am around her.
At this point, to an extent, that is what I am paying for. Now it is no longer as clear cut as it was for sex. Now I am paying for an emotional fantasy and this is what I worry about.
To be honest, I think I would be happy with the setup that you have going.
"I am not asking for any of that to change in case that is what you are implying."
"Can I have a relationship with this woman? I like to think so. Would I have a relationship with this woman? I most assuringly would. Now, the problem is does she like me outside of our little fantasy world. I wish I knew the answer to this one."
I dunno, sounds to me like you are contradicting yourself....not that uncommon in this situation, I've done it a million times myself!
"To be honest, I think I would be happy with the setup that you have going."
I'm a very lucky guy, and I'm not sharing! 
I, too, have a close relationship with my ATF. We love each other, but, like BG, I always pay for the sex. It will never go any farther because I am married and she has a bf. BTW, her bf knows about me, but my wife does not know about her. That should also tell you something.
I have found when my reg Gents start getting too close and misunderstand Our relationship, the best way I see to difuse it is to ask them in a conversation why they aren't dating, or how have they been working on their love life at home. That I want them to be happy but it shows that and not directly, that I am interested in their happiness but it won't be with me. I have had to cool things off by being busy and so on. Its tricky this relationship thing, and this biz makes it even harder. Good luck but i suuggest you proceed with caution. You may end up looking for a new ATF.
-- Modified on 4/15/2008 10:06:45 AM
Yeah, I hear what you are saying. To some degree I wish she would pass a hint like that. At least then I would know that there is no future in it and I should move on to someone else. I mean part of me wants some kind of resolution to this. Either way, good or bad. Just let me know...The other half of me thinks that it is too nice to have her around so just go with it and leave things as they are. She gets her money, I get her affection, everyone is happy.
From her perspective it's a lose/lose. If she says she likes you she knows that you are going to start bugging her about having her for free. If she says she doesn't have feelings for you she runs the risk of you moving on. Either way, from her side of the bed she stands to lose revenue. Remember, this is her job. My hunch is that things will remain status quo unless you make a move to change them.
you are probably right bostonguy57. We will just have to wait and see how things pan out.
"Normally when you like someone and they do not like you in return, that is that."
You put into words a part of the confounding experience I've had with my ATF, in that when we do meet someone we like and they demonstrate their desire for us, in return, the dance of a deepening relationship continues on. But, in my relationship with my AFT, she demonstrates her desire for me and after a set time, I must walk away. On a conscious level I know the rules and the need for them, but on a gut level, it doesn't make sense, because we are not accustomed to having to break off the dance of intimacy with someone who desires us, only when we begin to sense that they no longer do so. So often my gut and my head are in conflict.
she probably does like you, there may be chemistry and all but it is a job. She is a professional. Not that it can't happen or isn't happening, yet it is her job. She probably has several sweet Gents who there is a click with and you may be one of them but it all changes with that little envelope. I am certain it is how I feel. Don't illude yourself to think it may be different.
Thanks for providing that bit of insight sweetnicole1. This is one of the many reasons why I think I will just have to be happy with adoring her while we are together. If it gets to the point that I can not handle it, I will just tell her how I feel and let the chips fall where they may. Worst case, I have to stop seeing her.
you may want to step back a bit, take a little more time between visits. Throw in another Lady to the mix and get some perspective. I have a Gent who I click with in every way, we are great together. I see him twice a week and have for the most part for the last 3yrs. Every now and then we take a breather from each other. It helps to draw the line again more clearly. Good luck.
Nicole~~
Having a second or third lady that you also see is a big part of keeping that elusive perspective that I was talking about earlier. I am very fortunate in that, in addition to my ATF, I have a great lady who lives about three hundred miles away that I also see on a regular basis. Also, I see new ladies when I travel. I am a big fan of loyalty in all things but in the case of the hobby I think it can be a little dangerous to only be seeing one woman.
-- Modified on 11/14/2008 4:46:37 PM
LG~coming from you...that is truely a compliment
-- Modified on 4/15/2008 5:02:23 PM
There is a line a Leonard Cohen song called "Susanne." It goes: "There are heroes in the seaweed, there are children in the morning, they are leaning out for love and they will lean that way forever, while Suzanne holds her mirror."
The draw of the desire for the other, who in turn is mirroring back the same desire, is a powerful draw, even while you're trying to remind yourself of the nature, conditions and limits of it. Keeping the conflict conscious, and communicating its pain to others can help to keep oneself in check.
you are a very deep thinker, you almost lost me there for a minute. I get it though.
Thanks. You're no slouch yourself. I don't really think of myself as a deep thinker, but I do feel things very deeply.
to aptly describe the experience I have with some gals I meet:
"...a face that pulls your eyes out like a magnet..."
By the way, if you like Leonard Cohen's Susanne, there is a version performed by The Flying Lizards which is a masterpiece of minimalist imagery, and is scored for strings in a most unusual way.
"...a face that pulls your eyes out like a magnet..." Like the cartoons, when Mickey first see's Minney Mouse. I've tried to find "Suzanne," by the Flying Lizards on Itunes but no luck. Any suggestions on a online music site that might have a clip? Thanks for the recommendation.
I'm no longer posting on this board, but if you don't snap out of it and get a grip, I WILL link back to two previous posts I wrote on this subject to another guy who also was smitten by an escort (Dec. 17 & 18, 2007, The Erotic Highway Board).
Then you won't be hearing sappy music playing, you'll be hearing the ringing in your ears from getting smacked on the side of the head, which it sounds like you badly need. I'll stop now before I tell you what I really think of the fantasy you've created and are trying to crawl into.
Hey, don't feel bad, you're only about the 10 millionth guy to fall into this trap.
Trust me G2 if it where as simple as snapping my fingers I would have already done that. Now I just have to let it run its course and see what happens.
I truly believe that things happen for a reason. The reason for this is not yet clear, but it will be soon enough.
Thanks for the insight and I will read your other posts.
Ichi
I've experienced three scenarios related to the feelings you are having and the decision you are trying to make.
One Scenario- two providers that I like a lot as people- not 'in love', not wanting to cross any significant line, I just respect them, they me, we enjoy each other's company a lot. I compliment them, let them know what I see in them and like, even gently confront areas sometimes- as they do me. It has forged friendship that does involve occasional off the clock dinner and phone calls, but the provider/hobbyist relationship is still there. As Wormwood said, I approached cautiously not wanting to freak them out. They trust me not to get freaky, and me them.
Second Scenario- met an ATF, we both knew it was special first date- which ended up an overnight. We told each other our feelings very rapidly- had a whirlwind fling that crashed and burned six weeks later with much pain to me. Lesson learned- EXTREME CAUTION now! While I have no regrets because we had a wonderful brief fling, the first few weeks after it crashed and burned it was pretty painful.
Third Scenario- a current favorite- we discussed the boundaries before second session as we enjoy each other tremendously, but she is a total pro and won't let a business relationship get out of control. However, she has a great attitude toward feelings and great connection-
she views the provider hobbyist relationship as a "wonderful box" where while in the box, we are free to totally explore our feelings and passions because of the box around the relationship. The "box" protects both from agendas, expectations beyond the box and creates the freedom while in the box. In this hobbyist/provider relationship, we freely love and support each other when together, express feelings, talk about the other's strengths and attractions and have a whole lot of fun. Out of the box- she goes about her life and me mine. Works quite nicely!
Last but not least- In early hobbying this was a struggle much more than now = and SweetNicole's suggestion along with a corollary got me through quite nicely- See lots of gals (the corollary) for awhile and slow down with the ATF- really helps keep the big head on straight!
-- Modified on 4/17/2008 10:07:48 AM
-- Modified on 4/17/2008 10:43:34 AM
-- Modified on 4/17/2008 10:46:01 AM
-- Modified on 11/14/2008 4:48:17 PM
Thanks Goldenbear for sharing your experiences and wisdom. I find the concept of the "wonderful box" very helpful in SO relationships as well. All couples need a time and place to "be free to totally explore our feelings and passions," while protecting us "both from agendas, expectations beyond the box." The challenge is to put money, child rearing, issues, etc., outside the "wonderful box" so they can just be the couple they started out as. They usually find that all the good stuff that they started with is usually still there if they can stay inside the box long enough.
Sorry for quoting you so much, but I just can't find a better way to say it.
-- Modified on 4/18/2008 12:50:44 PM
Thanks a lot Goldenbear22. This is a very informative post.
Personally, I like the box idea. The question is once things start getting more involved, can I stay in the box.
I too have started to see a few other women. I can not say that it is helping me in this situation though I am having fun. Time will tell.
Thanks for sharing.
Ichi
The reason I say so is these things almost always don't work out. In fact, I hear from ladies ALL THE TIME about guys who confess their love, expect the dynamics of their relationship to change (aka get it for free, or try to do bareback, etc...) and these men always grow increasingly frustrated, a little bit psycho and are the basis of many problems. Some start to stalk the lady in question, turning from a perfectly well behaved man into a complete and utter psycho and some become enraged, threaten her or her children/family/friends and either way, I've never heard of a case where this has worked out (outside of Mr. Fisher.) lol.
My advice, should you want to take it, is to forget her or to suppress the instinct to tell her and keep things as they are.
Katie
it is rare.
It just seems like Bev and I are the only ones who have it going right, because I'm such a shameless self promoter, i.e. blabbermouth. 8o)
No self promotion, but I really like the way my relationship with my now-retired ATF has developed.
I've always been a nothing ventured- nothing gained kind of guy, though.
Katielady2006,
I tend to agree with you that it will not work out. More than likely this is all one sided on my part and she will not be receptive to the idea of an emotional bond. To this end, I have decided to only drop hints as to my true feelings. I am sure she will figure it out over time and take whatever steps are necessary in order to feel comfortable in the situation.
I do not have any expectations from this. I would just like to be open and honest about my feelings for her. It is one of those shout it from the roof top things. I am perfectly fine with keeping our relationship the way it is. After all, it is how it started.
Ichi
the problem you may have with the "shouting it from the roof tops" theory in this type of a situation is it may in turn work against you. She may decide you have already in your mind crossed that line and not be willing to see you. I have a client like that and although I like him, he's a sweet guy and there is some chemistry, It really freaks me out a bit so I don't see him as often as he'd like. I stopped seeing him altogehter for about 6months to cool things off. Its her job first off and if you think you are the only guy she connects with, you are wrong. Good luck with what ever you choose and I hope it works out for you both in the best way. Just use caution or you may regret you chose to say anything at all.
Thanks again sweetnicole1. I value your insight as you can see it from the other side of the coin.
If, after I have dropped my hints as to my true feelings for her, she decides not to see me then so be it.
It is what it is and I will just have to move on. Everyday someone falls for someone else and some times those feelings are not returned. It is the nature of the thing. I should not take advantage of the fact that I can still be intimate with her. It is not in my best interests to continue something like that.
I was not looking for a relationship. In fact, one of the reasons I see providers is due to the fact that I wanted to be with a woman, but did not want the strings that come with it. This just happened. I do not know why. All I know is that it did and now I just have to work through it.
I don’t expect her to give up her life for me. I don’t expect anything. I can not say that I want anything other then the ability to express my feelings openly. That is all I am really after. If that is too much for her to handle, so be it. I have met a few ladies, based off of other advice given here, that are more than happy to help me get over her. This hobby has its perks apparently.
All,
This is just a note to say thank you for all of the insightful replies and to let everyone know of my intentions based off of them.
My initial concern was that I thought mentally it might be unhealthy to pursue an intimate one sided relationship with a provider. She would play the interested, attentive woman; I would be the deeply infatuated man. To some extent, this sounds like the perfect situation. I would get her affection, and I am free to give her mine. At least while we are together in the provider/client arrangement. The problem here, in my opinion, is that she is oblivious to the situation. She is an unwilling party in this fabricated relationship. This situation can not be good emotionally for me.
Knowing that I have to tell her or I have to stop seeing her I have decided to let the truth be known, but in very small doses. Things like, “I think about you often”, “I feel so at ease when I am with you”,”Looking into your eyes I feel as if time stops and we are the only two souls in the universe”. Well maybe not the last one, but you get my point. This way, she will know how I feel and she can make a determination as to what she would like to do next. She might ignore it, or she might play along. At least now her playing into my fantasy is not a bad thing as she is a willing participant. If it makes her uneasy then I will just have to stop seeing her. This is how it would normally work in the real world anyway. It will be painful for me, but that which does not kill me can only make me stronger. Besides, I have fond memories of her and I have a few new providers to keep me busy.
Some have made the comment about wanting to change the relationship, especially the sex for money aspect. I have no intention on changing anything, nor am I asking for it in anyway. This is who she is, why would I want to change that.
My true goal here is simply an emotional bond with this woman. I want her to know that when she is in my arms, my heart is filled with elation and that I want to share my very being with her. It does not sound like much, but it is important to me that she knows this.
Again, thank you for sharing your experiences and knowledge. It has been most helpful
in determining my next course of action in this situation.
Ichi
-- Modified on 4/19/2008 6:01:48 AM
-- Modified on 4/19/2008 6:02:59 AM
Just don't get wierd on her- neither of you need the grief. Stalkers and overly infatuated hobbyists are such a nightmare to these special gals.
While your decision is contrary to most of the advice, if you approach slowly as you state you plan to- it will most likely result in one of several outcomes-
1) she gets nervous about your feelings and suggests a break for awhile
2) you get increasingly encouraged by her not turning you away and get wierd on her
3) she accepts your feelings for what they are and continues-- followed by it eventually burning out if you find yourself dissatisfied by the one way stream of feelings
4) you both end up okay with it and have a very nice longer term provider/hobbyist relationship that is satisfying to both of you.
As long as #2 doesn't happen, and your decision is conscious as it appears to be, I do believe there are no regrettable mistakes- you either succeed from your decision or fail and learn from it. Either way- you win!
Again, Good luck! And do post in a few months and let us know the outcome.
-- Modified on 4/19/2008 9:49:21 AM
email me at [email protected] and I'll send you a poem I wrote for a provider that may help you!
GB22
I think that is an awful idea.
It is almost worse to "drop little hints" than to just tell her. It is likely to make her uncomfortable. Even if she cares sincerely about you - within the bounds of this kind of relationship - these hints are uncomfortable. It will naturally make her start to worry that you might want to *change things*. Change could mean any number of things...from leaving your wife (assuming you are married) to becoming a stalker to becoming so emotionally draining and dramatic that she can't see you anymore. Ladies almost never want to change things with very good clients. Really.
We women are not stupid. This is a common situation, and in all likelihood she has seen it before and knows the signs. She has likely "fired" clients who have crossed those boundaries. She already knows; you don't have to say anything. Simply relax and enjoy her company.
~Naiya
P.S. I did not read through this entire thread, just pieces of it...so forgive me if I repeated something.
By that I mean, the community that posts and responds on this board seems to be only current hobbyists and providers. I haven't read any posts from "retirees." I don't wish to belabor the debate or give anyone false hope, but thinking logically, if the sample is skewed then the results are as well.
I just thought this was an interesting question to raise when considering shifting the dynamic in these oh so unique relationships.
a junkie hangin out in a shooing gallery? well in a better light of course, but still it can be something you get so used to when you choose to walk away I imagine you stay away from here as well.
There are those who have successes but few. It's complicated and too many dif levels where it can go wrong.
MissNaiya,
Thank you for your advice, I like hearing from providers as you allow me a glimpse into your world from the other side of the glass.
Why is it that people keep bringing up the stalker thing. Does the fact that I have feelings for a provider mark me as unstable?
Couldn't it just mean that I have feelings for her and nothing else. Why do I have to want something more from her? Is this the provider mentality towards the infatuated client. Do they always want more?
Ichi
Yes quite often they do. This is a very Intimate business and it can be confusing even on this end. We do also have not just one, but many we click with on several different levels. I can say if I were interested in dating, and I'm not... I can say off hand I know of about 10 regular clients who fit my ideal of a great lover in every way. Guys I would date. I look forward to seeing them I truely not just enjoy their company but thrive on it. There is a chance for infatuation very easily. I am in need of a constant reminder with a select few, that this is a Fantasy.(thus the envelope) It works both ways and seldom works out to everyones satisfaction, so that old saying "you don't shit where you eat" , although blunt it rings true here as well.
I have had to stop seeing clients before because I was not interested in that way as they had wished and I felt I was misleading them. It can feel a bit creepy. Think hard before you decide either way. I still think by seeing another lady instead for a while it may give you an oppertunity to step back to gain perspective a bit. Put some distance between you and her before you do either and see how you feel then.
Good luck either way.
Nicole~~
As you said the intimacy and the illusion can be confusing.... to both sometimes- most often to the vulnerable hobbyist though who hasn't figured it out yet and may need to experience some pain to figure it out! And as you particularly said well in a different post- the visits are all the more illusive because we are only seeing the fantasy great side- none of the "don't feel like it tonight", the honey-do's, the aggrevations... etc.
I've had it happen where we both got confused... ended badly as all who post from experience always warn.
I've got one particularly level headed favorite who explains exactly what you said about having clients who would/do fit her ideal of a great lover. She enjoys them thoroughly, is thrilled that they are clients, loves it when they are regulars as they make those 'business' hours much more enjoyable than they sometimes otherwise are.
She looks at it as being able to have several lovers, one may be funny and humorous, one handsome, one a bell-ringing great lover, one who wonderfully flatters and builds her up, etc-
And-- all those wonderful lovers pay her too! Why on earth would she screw that up by dating one? (what you said about excreting where you eat!)
Not that dating is what ichi is talking about, but it was an excellent illustration of a level headed smart provider's viewpoint.
-- Modified on 4/19/2008 9:55:20 PM
in many cases, it feels to the provider as if she IS being stalked, from a purely emotional standpoint. What may be a show of dedication and even simply loyalty from a hobbyist's viewpoint, can feel to the provider like she is "suffocated" and slowly being driven insane by her client. Providers DO NOT want their clients to bother them with their feelings. Trust me on this one. Unless the provider makes a DEFINITE MOVE toward you and declares her feelings, do not bother her with yours. It may seem unfair, but in this case, it's the prerogative of the provider to decide what to do. And don't worry, you don't have to say anything - a provider isn't dense, she can read feelings quite well. But if she gets a whiff of you being "infatuated" - and yes, it happens a lot, especially if the provider is a great professional - you'll either be tolerated for a while, in the form of more appointments, and then dropped. Or, you'll be dropped right away, if your hints feel "stalkerish."
Quite frankly, it doesn't matter if you drop hints or reveal your feelings all in one moment. If you catch your ATF on a day where she is feeling extra irritated, tired, annoyed or just plain emotional, you may find her curiously "busy" next time you try to hook up.
Here comes some advice from an experienced therapist with deep roots in the sex worker community: stop thinking, planning and dreaming about saying this or that to your ATF. Try to stop responding to every posting in this thread, for one. Try to focus on something else, or rather someone else. This is similar to having an erotic transference to a therapist, except the therapist gets into your head instead of into your pants on the first date. But I guess it's like telling a kid not to go near a burning stove. Or in this case, a hobbyist not to near a burning bush - you'll catch fire, burn and smolder into ashes.
Back off, back off,
the Love Goddess
all good points LG is in the know here on both levels as therapist and this biz so I'd listen if I were you.
Think for a minute though, If I was approached with that and the feelings were not the same, I'd cut you loose and most likely you'd be on my DNS list for quite a while if not perminately.
These type of infatuations are not real, its all a fantasy set in our own little world and you...are the bacon that pays my bills, not my lover. Christ you don't even know my real name.
Even the ones who have asked over and over again, some know another name but not my name my friends know. I just gave them a name to shut them up. Thats a sure sign that I don't want them in my real life. Wake up...I see it is an infatuation with you. And you will not be done with this til you blow it, she blows you off and says to herself, "too bad he was a steady meal ticket for a while." Live and learn I guess. When you cross the line and can't see her any more you will know what its all about.
I am getting irritated with your constant lack of judgement here alone, I know I'd of cut you loose you are one of those guys who can't keep a healthy perspective about this "Business" Get it "business" Its a business!! Not dating....
I hate to be so blunt again...but its just not sinking in with you and you require a Slap to bring you back to the basics of this Business, you pay me for my time, we enjoy each other, the fantasy usually stays in tact and I never have to be so "in your face" about what we both already know. I prefer to allow the fantasy to grow a bit but at the end of the day I go home and spend your money and kiss my kids, see my BF, make love to him and don't think about you. Sorry its the way it is, and I expect the same from you.
-- Modified on 4/20/2008 5:33:32 AM
OK - I'm a newbie to the hobby and all this feels very familiar to me already so I thought I would interject some related questions. I have a companion I see that I am infatuated with, in part most likely because I haven't had any type of close relationship for 10+ years. I do have questions for this group in this excellent thread.
I have told her that I think of her every day and would like to talk abut this, knowing this is a business transaction, to find the "walls of the box" so I don't stray past those. Is this too much to ask? The question I have is would most providers give me a straight answer, given their role in this transaction.
My time with her is important to me but it seems equally important to define the relationship - would make things cleaner (... I know, when it comes to emotions nothing is clean... )
Of course, as others have said, seeing other providers can ameliorate this, regardless.
...Love TER... Very helpful to me and a great group!!!!
...
so you are saying, don't expect a straight answer?
...
Thanks
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long as I know the rules of the game.
...
The providers on this board aren't using their work as a dating service- they're using it to earn money. It's only clients, who usually have no other women in their lives, that keep trying to redefine the "relationship" to make it something that it is not.
Yes, they're attractive and welcoming, and yes, being with a woman that accepts your flaws and and still makes your time together memorable is a real ego boost. Especially given how harshly most regular women treat you when dating.
And yes, your time with them will seem magical and perhaps even better than any GF's you've ever had. It is not reality, however, and that escape is what you are paying for. But as has been posted endlessly by many people on this board, including me, it is the client who crosses the boundary when he starts getting "infatuated" or having other emotional reactions and confuses the nice service he received with something else.
Let's be honest here, most guys get all weak kneed about ANY woman that will have sex with them. It's nature's little trick to get us paired-up and reproducing. But if you can't distinguish between the feelings you have with a provider and the feelings you have with a woman you aren't paying, then you're in for a rough ride and don't be surprised if your feelings aren't reciprocated. In fact, you also shouldn't be surprised if most of the providers you share these feelings with won't see you again.
It's true that some of the guys on this board have become friends with providers and done things off the clock. But that's usually after building a trust over many months or years of knowing them- and that trust is based on acting very emotionally stable, in control and predictable. Even then, it's usually she who will make the first move if she wants to redefine the relationship- not you.
It's understandable that women in this business are very cautious about whom they befriend, and your post basically outlines the reason why. By all means, feel free to compliment her on how good she looks or tell her how much you enjoy your time together. But remember, the quickest way to smash the wonderful fantasy that the provider weaves, and get shown the door in the process, is to express your infatuation with her.
-- Modified on 4/28/2008 12:30:45 AM
Let me illustrate by using the "subtle" statements you said that you desired to say.
>> “I feel so at ease when I am with you”
This is actually a great thing to say.* This is absolutely how you are supposed to feel in a situation like this. It is a complement that she is doing everything right. *BUT... If you say this, but the intention and feeling behind it is "I'm so madly in love with you" than that will be clear to her - and could easily make her uncomfortable. Just don't go there.
>> ”Looking into your eyes I feel as if time stops and we are the only two souls in the universe”
This is "over the top" romantic, and you know that.
>> “I think about you often”
Never, ever say this under any circumstances. This *isn't* how she wants you to feel about her. Her next thoughts can go like this... "If he's thinking about me all the time, is he going to start calling me/emailing me all the time? Is he going to start messing up his marriage/work/personal life because he is distracted by his obsession over me? Wow, he's getting obsessed over me." These kind of statements lead a lady to worry.
>> Why is it that people keep bringing up the stalker thing.
Very simply, because that can and does happen to us...even if it is only to the extent of being emotionally pressured or constantly emailed.
>. Does the fact that I have feelings for a provider mark me as unstable?
No. I think it's really natural to have feelings. But the fact that you are thinking about her this much, have so much conflict over needing to express them probably does. (I don't mean unstable as being insane...but you aren't emotionally stable right now, and you are not a stable client.)
>> Why do I have to want something more from her?
As much as you *say* that you don't want anything to change - subconsciously at least - you do. I cannot imagine you would be so conflicted about communicating your feelings to her unless you wanted her to do something differently. Maybe that's not run away and spend the rest of your lives together...but it's something. I'm just guessing that you want your feelings to be "returned". Chances are that pressing her to become madly in love with you - or convincingly fake that sentiment - is going to drive her away from you.
>> Do they always want more?
No. But the gentlemen who don't want more aren't doing what you are doing. They know better than to bring things like this up. They strongly don't want to mess their personal lives up. They know where these boundaries are, and approach them conservatively. They are careful not to make a lady uncomfortable by giving her the impression they "might" want more - because they care about her feelings and about maintaining a relationship with her on her terms. They can enjoy their feelings and connection without getting lost in the fantasy. This kind of situation can possibly (with the right lady) lead to a deep friendship as well as a business relationship, and maintain itself comfortably for years. This is (most likely) the best result from her perspective.
What do I think you should do? Think very deeply and honestly about what you are trying to "get" from her. Stop pressuring her for "more". Relax. When you find yourself thinking about her outside of your dates, go do something else. Hang out with a friend, spend time with your family, etc. If you find you can't do this, you may very well need to take a break.
~ Naiya
we had already established the basis for a very good friendship. We knew a lot about each other's lives outside the hobby and freely asked for and gave advice. When time permitted, we met for lunch occasionally and we communicated very regularly about things that were very important to us.
If none of these things have happened yet, you're jumping the gun about talking about your feelings.
As LG and others have said, wait until there's some indication on her part that she's interested in you as anything other than a client. be awake, though. You don't want to miss the opportunity if she does.