have forgotten above. While traveling on business in Japan - we often were greated at the front door of many business by the "office girls." These are attractive young women who are hired to be office girls - literally. They are not paid much, they are forced to wear a uniform (the uniform of the company) and work fairly long hours. I even ask a secretary in this country for a cup of coffee and I am immediately sent to sensitivity training... oh well.
But, how we, in the US treat and respond to women is somewhat unique in most of the world - for those liberals who think that we are so backward - travel a little - experience what really goes on in other parts of the world.
This weekend I saw the movie "Hostel" - and while the particular story is fictional - I have heard of stories that came out of the eastern block that described many of the situations presented in that film. In most parts of the world - human life is cheap, morality is very situational and people for the most part demonstrate that the layer of civilization is about 1 nanometer in depth... so, while I still don't like the practices of AMPs - I can see that the ladies there - are very much like the ladies in this profession everywhere - they wish to be treated with respect and kindness. and they respond to that.
so Amen - to all
Recently visited the San Francisco area and ended up at an AMP with a beautiful young Chinese girl who spoke very little English. Afterwards, got to wondering just what her circumstances were really compared to the many providers I have met elsewhere who are either independent or who have clearly made a choice to work for an agency.
Anyone have any information or thoughts on the matter?
"if you like sausage, don't watch how they get made"?
I think it's similar here -- I suspect that many of these women in AMPs are there under, at the very least, some terrible form of duress. And by patronizing these establishments, we are in some way complicit and aiding and abetting their victimizers? And maybe it's up to us, if we have any sense of humanitarian concern for our fellow man, to stop patronizing these establishments?
Or, if we don't want to give them up, not ask ourselves these questions?
If that's the case, then maybe once again ignorance is bliss?
Or at the very least, just seek out massages from women who work independently?
PS. I totally understand your curiosity, it's the most natural thing in the world. One of my ATFs was a beautiful and really personable Asian-American woman, educated, and I always wondered how she came to be in this biz. She mentioned several times having a legit business which she provided for her family, but as the nature of the business changed with each telling [from translation service to nail salon to internet cafe, I guess she was blowing smoke. But man, did I ever like her. And she reminded me a lot of my late wife].
One lady volunteered - and the story was too real to have been made up. Tipped her extra - and was touched both by her naive approach to the biz and her desire to forge a better life for her family.... Agree that the best way to end the existance of a bad life is to stay away... - and I do stay away after that encounter. And I too agree- it is hard not to like some of these ladies - as they are innocents.
I have known a Koream provider for about eight years now and we have become quite close, despite the language problem, spending many nights together. I have asked her about conditions at the AMP's she has been in, and while some are better than others, she says they are all much better than the prospects she faced in Korea and is very glad to be in the USA, and is very greatful for the good customers she has. She has worked her way up the ladder and has an apartment, a car and a lot of friend to network with. In other words, a typical American success story. I am very grateful to know a person like her.
On the other hand, I'm sure there are some pretty awful places, but on the other hand, I've heard some horror stories about the legal brothels in Nevada also.
I don't think that a general boycott of AMP's is going to do more good than bad in the long run.
Met with a very lovely Brazilian lady who was brought over by a service. Her circumstances and reasons for doing this were very different from the Thai or Korean ladies that I have met. You make a good point - but a point that I respectfully must disagree with - because you see, the Brazialian lady that I met with had free time, a nice place to stay and was afforded a degree of freedom that I do not think you will find in the typical AMP. Actually I really was impressed by the description that the Brazilian lady gave of her circumstances - not so with any of the AMP workers... but still - I would say YOMV! (your opinion may vary!) and I respect your view.
And I do entirely respect the different points of view. I know for example that standard operating procedure is for the women to sack out on the floor of the AMP at night and to pass around a communal bowl of rice for their meals. All I am saying is that, in the one case where I have gotten to know the person, this is preferable to what they would expect in Korea. Plus, she was able to save her $ (no doubt, she's a real hustler and got a good group of regulars that she can now see outside the AMP) and buy a nice slice of the American dream.
I had a granny who worked as a child blackening bottles so that she could raise a family someday, which she did, and see her children and grandchildren become successes.
There are many immigrants who work in much worse and for far less money than do the Asian woman in AMP's. It is easy to raise a big political ruckus about it by screaming "sex" and getting all the blue noses worked up. But in reality, it's the women and kids gutting fish in New Bedford, spraying pesticides in Salinas, and similar trades that should be brought out in the open.
I've been to Korea many times and had a few good Korean friends in the company that employed us who would give me the inside story on a lot of stuff as opposed to the tourist version. On many of my early trips, the week's business would conclude with the group spending an evening at the hostess bar followed by the hostesses coming back to the American's hotel to spend the night.
In the beginning I was as uncomfortable about this as the poster above, but was told by my Korean friends that I shouldn't feel that way, nor should I apply American standards to Korea.
They viewed it this way- the girls were there for reasons that had nothing to do with me. They obviously needed money and had few options in Korean society to earn it. Nobody forced them to do this (except a society that offered few opportunities) and for the most part they were fortunate to be attractive enough to earn this sort of money. Unlike in the US, these girls were young and I don't think ever had kids that I could tell. Most likely they found themselves supporting parents or grandparents instead. I'm sure others had plans to save money for school or other reasons, but in Korean society, it falls upon the children to take care of the parents in their old age and that can be a burden.
Anyway, I was told that they were there by their own choice before I came, and they would be there after I returned home. By paying them a higher rate than their local customers were charged I was making their entire week's income. Plus, I was treating them far better than they were typically treated. For that reason, I wasn't exploiting them, but rather helping them. Now this may sound like BS to an American, but I can assure you based on the response I always got from the girls it was the truth.
Its easy to view another culture through the lens of American society, and make judgements based on our perceptions and sensibilities. But they're not really living in our world, even though they're working here. Their responsibilities, ties and obligations remain in another country. And while they work here, they do so within the context of their family and mother country's social norms and mores, whether we agree with that or not.
The exception, of course, is anybody working against their will, being kept in virtual slavery by threat or confiscation of passports etc., or by old fashion pimps that take all their money. Certainly the Korean girls in Korea weren't in that situation, they were working in nice establishments and entertaining business executives for the most part. So whether I liked seeing them in that line of work or not really wasn't the issue. Their lives and responsibilities remained in Korea after I got back on a 747 and flew home. Their rules and customs were Korean, not American. So the bottom line is it was their business, not mine.
I assauged any lingering guilt I might have had by treating them respectfully, paying them well and perhaps buying them a gift in the morning when they'd leave. I'd also give them cab fare home and maybe would order room service for breakfast. I always made them feel like they were on a date and treated them special, just like I would any other date. My male Korean friends told me that the mamasan commented on how well we treated her girls and how much it was appreciated.
So the bottom line is you've really only got the two choices in these matters- either don't partake in the first place, or if you choose to participate be a good and respectful client and something positive in their life that week. But if you chose not to participate, just don't expect the situation to change by your abscence. And for that matter, even if every American boycotted, in cities like LA there are enough visitors from their home countrys to keep these girls working. LA has Korean and Japanese (and probably Chinese) hostess bars just like the ones I visited in Seoul. But they are "private clubs" and completely closed to outsiders. It's a shadow world that exists right under our noses. But while they may be out of sight and out of mind, they haven't gone away.
You know the phrase "world's oldest profession?" Well, it translates into every language in the world.
-- Modified on 1/17/2006 11:48:23 AM
have forgotten above. While traveling on business in Japan - we often were greated at the front door of many business by the "office girls." These are attractive young women who are hired to be office girls - literally. They are not paid much, they are forced to wear a uniform (the uniform of the company) and work fairly long hours. I even ask a secretary in this country for a cup of coffee and I am immediately sent to sensitivity training... oh well.
But, how we, in the US treat and respond to women is somewhat unique in most of the world - for those liberals who think that we are so backward - travel a little - experience what really goes on in other parts of the world.
This weekend I saw the movie "Hostel" - and while the particular story is fictional - I have heard of stories that came out of the eastern block that described many of the situations presented in that film. In most parts of the world - human life is cheap, morality is very situational and people for the most part demonstrate that the layer of civilization is about 1 nanometer in depth... so, while I still don't like the practices of AMPs - I can see that the ladies there - are very much like the ladies in this profession everywhere - they wish to be treated with respect and kindness. and they respond to that.
so Amen - to all
I've also worked in the US headquarters of two Japanese companies that everybody knows well. And while I've only been to Japan 13 times (versus 24 times to Korea) I 've had ample opportunity to learn about the "office flowers" you describe.
Yes ladies, they are hired for essentially decorative purposes and are always fired when they get married. I guess the thinking is that it ruins the male fantasy of the pure, virginal beauty of youth knowing that some guy is banging the hell out of you every night. So getting married is pretty much the end of your office flower career.
I agree with your observation that the feminist agenda has pretty much stopped at American shores. Whether you like it or not, its still a man's world for about 5 of the earth's 6 million people. Women are treated better in North America (I'll include Canada in this generalization) than any place I've visited. Northern Europe would probably be next on the list, but it falls off very fast after that.
I found Japan to have so many strange customs, like office flowers, that they made Korea seem almost enlightend by comparison. Of course, women's lives have improved in both countries significantly in the last dozen years, but private attitudes change slowly, especially with the older generation.
Most Americans probably don't realize that the groping of young women on the commuting trains is still common (and accepted), though coming under increasing pressure.
In fact, there is (or was) a club in Tokyo that offeres an area set up like a train, complete with sweet young women holding on to straps (like on the train) for the sole purpose of giving its male patrons a "healthy" outlet for their desire to grope girls. Of course, it must not come close to the thrill of "accidently" feeling them up in their natural habitat as the train shifts back and forth, because the practice doesn't seem to be going away.
The entire subject of sexual repression and the outlets it takes is another area that's pretty amazing to most Americans- but that's a post for another time.
-- Modified on 1/17/2006 11:40:34 AM
A refreshing attitude and and informative post.
There's a decent chance that she was not doing that work completely of her own accord. I'm sure we've all read about the cases of trafficking, and I think you're a lot more likely to have run into that at an AMP with girls who don't speak much English than if you'd been seeing (just to pick a random example) an escort with her own website who does outcalls.
I can't guarantee anything about whatt was going on -- she may have been perfectly fine with the situation, and enjoyed the work. Still, it's one of those things that has strong potential to be really disgusting.
They also eat very well.They have a women there who does the laundry and cooks.I have seen some very nice meals being served there.Also many let there imagination run away with them and start thinking these girl are in some kinda of servitude.I have gotten some strange looks when I asked some of these questions.It is not the case.Granted some amps may have better working arrangements than others,but that is similar to many working conditions her in good ole USA.